Drawing Automation

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konradh
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2013/12/01 16:41:40 (permalink)

Drawing Automation

Here's what I want to do: draw a straight line for Pan from left to right over one measure.  (I want to do this repeatedly.)  Here is what I am running into.
 
•With Automation | Pan selected in the track, and the Pencil tool selected, I cannot draw a point or a straight line.  I can hold the mouse button down and draw a series of nodes, but not a straight line.  I tried botht eh freehand and line tools.
 
•  The online manual says to click where I want the start of the line, release, and click again where I want the end of the line.  This does not work.  (See above.)
 
Thoughts on this?  There are times I would like to do this with volume as well.
 
Thanks.

Konrad
Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
#1

24 Replies Related Threads

    Guitarpima
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 16:59:32 (permalink)
    enable the envelope, create the nodes where you want them then drag the nodes to exactly where you want them. It will create the straight line that way.
     
    If you want other options for the envelope line, right click on the line and you have the choice of jump, fast curve and slow curve.
     
    Sometimes you want to use the jump before you create the line you want. create the jump between two nodes and adjust it. Move it again and it creates to more nodes at the same place as the ones you created. You can delete one and create a line that way. You just have to experiment with them. There are things about them I learn as I go as well.
     
    Hopefully one day we will be able to drag the curve to create custom curves.

    Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
     
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    #2
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 17:08:29 (permalink)
    Guitarpima, Many thanks, but what do you mean by "enable the envelope?"  I think this is where the problem lies.  When I click with the pencil it does not create a node.  If LINE mode, I can't get the pencil to do anything.  In freehand mode, I can drag the pencil to get a series of nodes, but they are not in a straight line.
     
    In the track view, I have used the drop down to select Automation | Pan instead of clips.  Is there something else I need to do?
     
    Thanks.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #3
    garrigus
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 17:18:43 (permalink)
    Just make a selection. Then position your mouse near the top of the clip so it looks like a horizontal capital I with up/down arrows. Then click/drag up/down to automatically create a line segment for the selection. See this video for a demo...
    http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/video.asp?ID=6
     
    Scott

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    #4
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 17:50:58 (permalink)
    Thanks, Scott. Great video but I must be the stupidest guy on the forum here because I still can't do what I am trying to do.  I followed your directions step by step and got a horizontal line for pan.  What I need is a diagonal line to pan from left to right during a measure.  Once I had the horizontal line I tried editing the start and end nodes, but that did not give me a smooth horizontal line.
     
    Also, in this mode I still cannot get the LINE tool to do anything.
     
    I think the line tool is what I need to draw a diagonal line but I cannot get the line tool to do anything.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #5
    gswitz
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 17:56:42 (permalink)
    +1 for Scott's suggestion. Also, be aware if you have lots of nodes that you want to be the same height you can grab them and move them together...
     
    Here's a random bizarre scenario: you want every other measure panned an equal 45% left and the other measures panned 45% right.
     
    Steps:
    1. Move the whole pan envelope to 45% left.
    2. set the snap to grid to 1 measure and highlight the first measure you want panned right
    3. hover near the top of the selected region until the mousepointer changes and click drag it down so the envelope adds 2 nodes at the start of the selection and 2 nodes at the end and moves the envelope for that one measure to pan right. Don't worry about how far right just yet... just pan it right.
    4. Do this for every other measure in the tune.
    5. lasso select all the nodes in the envelope that are panned right.
    6. Drag all the selected nodes to the extreme right position (100%) and let go.
    7. Now they are all at 100% right.
    8. Click drag all the selected nodes to 45% right.
     
    All done. :-)
     

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #6
    gswitz
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 18:03:44 (permalink)
    To create a smooth diagonal line try this...
    1. create envelope and move it to 45% left
    2. create two nodes in the envelope. 1 where you want the diagonal to begin... one where it should end.
    3. ctrl+click the envelope to the right of the second node you added in step 2 and move the envelop to 45% right.
     
    Now you should have an envelope that begins at 45% left.. at node one begins to transition to 45% right. At node 2 is has completed its transition and stays flat at 45% right for the rest of the song.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #7
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 18:36:53 (permalink)
    gswitz, Pls don't shoot me, but what do you mean "create envelope?"  I feel I am missing a step.
     
    Also, if anyone can explain why the line tool won't draw a line, that would be very helpful.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #8
    gswitz
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 18:42:45 (permalink)
    ok... In tracks view, click the drop down on the left where it says 'clips' and select automation then Pan to add the red pan envelope.
     

     
    next drag the envelope left... add two nodes... ctrl click the farthest right segment and raise it.


    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #9
    swamptooth
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 18:48:24 (permalink)
    konradh
    gswitz, Pls don't shoot me, but what do you mean "create envelope?"  I feel I am missing a step.
     
    Also, if anyone can explain why the line tool won't draw a line, that would be very helpful.


    i think you're just clicking on the pencil tool.  click and hold the pencil tool and a menu will come up - select line.

     
    Arvid H. Peterson
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    #10
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 18:49:07 (permalink)
    OK, gswitx, Thanks very much.  Yes, I am good there.
     
    Here's what I ended up doing.  I used the triangle tool to create some triangles.  They were in the wrong place and were the wrong size, but that was ok.  I used the razor to erase all but two nodes, then right-clicked on the nodes to edit the properties.  That gave me one diagonal line.  I copied it to the next measure and edited the nodes to reverse their left-right values.  I then had straight lines for left to right and right to left pan.  I just copied those over and over.
     
    I still think there must be an easier way to draw a diagonal line, but this worked.
     
    Thanks again for helping.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #11
    gswitz
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 19:19:30 (permalink)
    I think the line tool doesn't draw a straight line b/c that is actually the default behavior. You don't need a draw tool to get a straight line. You just add two nodes and move one of them and you get diagonal lines.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #12
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 19:42:12 (permalink)
    Sorry to beat this to death, but why wouldn't the Line tool draw a line?  In every other software application I've ever used with a line tool, the tool draws a line between two points, and that line can be horizontal, vertical, or diagonal.
     
    The second issue is that the freehand tool will not draw a single node.  I have to draw a sloppy freehand set of nodes and then erase nodes and move nodes to get something useful.  That makes no sense when there is something called the Line tool.
     
    Finally, the behavior seems erratic.  Sometimes two nodes will have smooth linear automation between them, sometimes they will have abrupt changes from one node to the other (lie an L shape instead of a diagonal), and sometimes they will be connected with a cruve..
     
    What I am looking for is definitely not odd or exotic: I just want a smooth change in volume and pan from point A to point B without a lot of complicated editing.
     
    So, how does one add a node at 100% Left, a node at 100 Right, and a smooth transition (diagonal line) between them?  Same question for volume.
     
    Thanks.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #13
    gswitz
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 19:54:17 (permalink)
    So, once you create the envelope, you don't need to use drawing tools to do what you want.
     
    I almost NEVER need drawing tools for basic volume and pan automation.
     
    To set focus on a given envelope...
    If the envelope doesn't have the focus, hold down shift and click on it. This is the easy way to change the focus between clip, pan envelope and volume envelope.
     
    Adding a node...
    Once the envelope you want is highlighted, just click on it. This adds a node. You don't need the draw tool.
     
    Next, move the node you added up or down.
     
    It's as easy as that!
     
    When do I use draw tools on an envelope?
    If I have a vocal part and I want slight variation in pan to move in time I might use the sign draw and hold down ctrl+drag to create a sign wave variation that is subtle but gently draws the listeners ear to the vocal.
     
    My AlphaTrack hardware controller definitely uses the line draw method as I move the fader on the AlphaTrack to draw in automation.
     
    In this video...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRU3bU5C4mg
    Around 5:35, I add a couple of nodes and add some volume automation while playing back the track. I'm clicking to add nodes and ctrl+clicking to select line segments in the automation and move them up and down.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #14
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 20:10:51 (permalink)
    You've gone to a lot of trouble here and I don't expect you to keep responding, but something is missing here.
     
    I have music in a track.  In this case a soft synth.
     
    I used the track drop-downs and selected Automation | Pan.
     
    Clicking with a drawing tool does not create a node.  As in Scott's video, I can use the Smart tool to highlight a section of the track and then if I click a certain way, I can get two nodes.  But then I have to edit the node properties individually and, as stated in my previous posts, that may or may not result in smooth automation between the nodes.
     
    Whether or not there are better ways that I am apparently to dumb to understand here , how does one 1-draw a line with the line tool or 2-draw a single node with any tool?
     
    I cannot believe this is so complicated.  Panning smoothly from one side to the other, or moving the volume up or down smoothly is a pretty basic function.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #15
    John
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 20:16:41 (permalink)
    One thing that is rather annoying about X3 and automation is that I have been relying on a CS for countless years but CW has made creating automation too darn easy with the mouse.
     
    Often times now I find myself forgoing the CS in favor of simply drawing the automation.  If I have a full track to automate I do still use the CS but its almost getting redundant. I'm not sure I like this development. 

    Best
    John
    #16
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 20:28:21 (permalink)
    What is CS?  I am completely lost here just trying to do what would seem to be a simple thing.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #17
    John
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 20:30:34 (permalink)
    Control Surface. In my case an original Mackie Control. 

    Best
    John
    #18
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 20:39:52 (permalink)
    I can use the VS-700 by putting it in Flip mode and using the faders to control Pan, but that is not as exact.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #19
    gswitz
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 21:16:34 (permalink)
    Konrad, don't use the draw tool.
     
    Hit F5 to use the smart tool.
     
    I used the track drop-downs and selected Automation | Pan.

     
    Now, just click on the line. It will add a node where you click. click and drag and it will move the node on the line.
     
    Ctrl+click the line between any two nodes and you can drag the line up and down.
     
    ctrl+click a segment selects the nodes at either end of the segment. you can then hover over either of the two nodes and move them as a collection right or left or up or down.
     
    Holding shift while you do it ensures they ONLY move right or left or ONLY up and down.
     http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X3&Lang=EN&Req=Automation.01.html
     
     
    post edited by gswitz - 2013/12/01 21:22:49

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #20
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 21:34:23 (permalink)
    Thanks, Geoff.  Selecting Automation | Pan in the drop-down displayed a dotted line.  Double-clicking on that line with the Smart Tool created nodes.  Using the Smart tool, I could drag one up and one down to create a diagonal line.  That solved the problem, so thanks very much!
     
    I still do not understand why the line tool doesn't work since it would be an obvious and simple solution; however, your method works perfectly.
     
    Thanks again and sorry I made this so much trouble.  I owe you a drink or two when I see you.
     

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #21
    gswitz
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 21:54:07 (permalink)
    Konrad,
     
    I don't normally use the line tool. It's like free hand draw. It's mainly used by Control Surfaces for automation or when using touch screen to write track automation. It quantizes and uses curves between nodes etc to create really nice automation envelopes. I pretty much NEVER draw these in with the mouse. I use my AlphaTrack or my touch screen to create them when I want them.
     
    I do the great majority of my automation with my mouse though. I just use it with the smart tool. I don't select the line tool. I click and drag nodes at will.
     
    When you have a dotted line it is only because you do not have an automation node at the end of the project. Just add one at the end, right click the line and choose Linear to draw the line in.
     
    When using a CS to add automation, you can often end up with the dotted lines. Dotted lines are ok as long as you play the project from the beginning, but if you stop the project with the volume set at 50% and then move the now time to a dotted line at 20%, it will NOT pick up this value. Only the solid lines are enforced automation. The dotted line shows where the value would be extended out from the last automation node.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #22
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 22:24:54 (permalink)
    Cool.  I use control surface automation all the time but never really stopped to think about the dotted line behavior.  I see what you mean: the console won't search back for the last value.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #23
    swamptooth
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/01 22:56:46 (permalink)
    hey konrad - 
    just noticed you're still on x1d - the line tool doesn't work for automation or midi cc's in prv (does work for notes though)... it was fixed in x2.   

     
    Arvid H. Peterson
    Sonar X3E Prod / X2A  / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure Data
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    #24
    konradh
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    Re: Drawing Automation 2013/12/02 00:17:57 (permalink)
    Good to know, swamptooth.  Thanks for letting me know.
     
    In this case, what I was trying to do was draw automation in the track view.  I think I have a way to do it now, but not with the line tool.

    Konrad
    Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/

    Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka.  Rokit 6s. 
    #25
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