Helpful ReplyDropout problem

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Stumc74
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2013/08/04 15:13:49 (permalink)

Dropout problem

I have been using a roland tricapture to successfully record my guitar playing and singing along to backing tracks with no problems until today.
I downloaded a backing track to record my guitar along with but unfortunately a second or 2 into recording it drops out .
With process of ilimination I have found the backing track is causing the problem.
It is just a simple mp3 backing track like ive used before. I really need to record along to to this particular backing track.
 
If anyone has some simple sugestions to things I can try to stop the dropout problems that would be great. 
#1
Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/04 18:07:40 (permalink)
I'm not an expert on the subject, but the metadata included in many MP3s has caused problems to many.

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#2
RobertB
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/04 23:35:54 (permalink)
I've not experienced that, but in light of what Kalle mentioned, I would suggest bouncing the MP3 track to a new audio track. This will create a wav file, and you can delete the original MP3 track from your project. If the metadata is the problem, this would allow your project to run cleaner, and hopefully, eliminate the dropout problem.

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#3
Stumc74
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/05 09:21:54 (permalink)
ok set up my gear this morning to try again recording along to the same backing track and it worked fine with no dropout messages or anything. I was going to try out your idea Robert but I didn't have to.
Its very strange because everything is set up exactly the same as yesterday.
 Thanks anyway for your help
post edited by Stumc74 - 2013/08/05 09:23:05
#4
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/27 16:00:34 (permalink)
I hope it's OK to submit my Dropout problem to an existing thread.   I'm fairly inexperienced with Sonar, but technically relatively proficient in general, so I have used google and Cakewalk resources to my best ability.   I have previously owned and used Cakewalk/Sonar software (possibly even on this laptop, I cannot recall) and in general found it quite usable, although it is always tricky working with Windows audio.   Yesterday I installed the Sonar LE 8.5 that came with my UA-25EX (yes, first time installed) on my Lenovo i3 Laptop with 8Gb RAM and after considerable research got it working flawlessly with the ASIO drivers at 44.1 hz sample rate, single channel record.   I am not doing anything strenuous, simply recording an audio book using an XLR mike via the USB UA-25EX Roland/Cakewalk external audio card.    No dropouts, no problems.  Great sound!  
 
After recording two chapters last evening, I noticed that my laptop suddenly was complaining that No WiFi device found!!   I was not able to easily re-enable the WiFi but eventually managed to turn it back on (I never turned it off!).   I know WiFi can be a problem with sound capture, but I did not appreciate the disabling without notification.  I also experimented with trying to set the UA-25EX as my default audio card (the built in audio is Realtek and since I wasn't using it for Sonar, I wanted to use the same external USB UA-25EX sound card for both Sonar and Windows Media Player.   I got it to work but fairly quietly.
 
This morning, I rebooted, and attempted to resume recording and POOF!   Stopped recording and red DROPOUT in the lower notification line after less than 2 seconds.   Repeatedly.   No way to avoid.  I have searched Google and Cakewalk forums and done everything I can imagine, but no dice.   Continues to stop recording.   Here's what I've done so far:
 
1)  Disabled WiFi in the device manager
2) Disabled Network adapter & disconneded LAN cable for good measure
3) Disabled Antivirus
4) Disabled Firewire
5) Uninstalled Skype, Google chat, and anything else that looked remotely audio related
6) Disabled built in Realtek audio card
7) Unplugged external USB hub (only external mouse and keyboard plugged into built in USB)
8) Strangely, an ASIO4ALL driver was set, so uninstalled ASIO4ALL and set to UA-25EX
9) Verified ASIO settings still remained as before, but increased buffer as per online recommendations
10) Unplugged UA-25EX  Cakewalk/Roland USB sound card completely
11) Rebooted (several times) - each time left UA-25EX unplugged, at least until system rebooted
12) Installed DPC Latency check software  ( )
About every 30 seconds my system continues to have a huge red spike and the message that "Some device drivers on my machine behave bad (sic) and..."   with only general recommendations on what to do (try disabling WiFi etc....already done)
13) I went into Process Explorer and cannot find any 'badly behaving devices).
 
I assume that ASIO4All was NOT necessary for this installation (I had installed it for previous virtual pipe organ synthesizer installation (GrandOrgue) which I am not currently using and is not running.
My audio is being recorded to the C drive which is probably not the fasted (5400??) but I had no problems yesterday and I read that running it over USB while capturing audio via the UA-25EX via USB was not a good idea (I did set up my audio folder for the external USB folder but somehow in the save dialog I managed to accidentally do the 'right' thing and save audio together with the project files -- that is where the audio ended up at least.
 
I am doing a disk defrag (it is 0% fragmented but has only 29Gb of 221 Gb free).  I have just now turned off indexing -- just in case that might help.  Basically, I have tried everything I can think of but obviously I am missing something because none of the things I have tried has made a noticeable change in the dropout.  I wish there was a way to tell Windows:   Just stop everything!  Do what I want and nothing else!
 
Currently I have uninstalled my UA-25EX drivers AND Sonar and plan to reinstall from scratch (seemed to work yesterday).  Perhaps something in the automatic audio configuration will make it work again, but I'm a bit nervous about having WiFi permanently disabled and any re-enabling causing permanent disability to my Sonar config!  
 
Any and all ideas welcome - stupid ideas, good ideas,  most likely scenarious, unlikely scenarios...
 
Dell
#5
scook
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/27 16:26:46 (permalink)
I would work on 12 before anything else. DPC checker is good for what it does but LatencyMon
 should give you a better idea of what is causing the spikes.
#6
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/27 16:59:25 (permalink)
Ok, thanks.  But for USD 119.95 and only recording voice (something that theoretically Windows Sound Recorder should be able to do) I think I'll start with just a clean reinstall of Sonar LE and not muck things up by reenabling WiFi etc...for now.

But long term, LatencyMon looks like exactly what I need - might be helpful in my Virtual Organ projects eventually.   Just seems a bit steep for a utility that ideally would come with an Operating System!  ;-) (I can dream!)
Thanks.
#7
scook
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/27 17:03:38 (permalink)
There is a free home edition http://www.resplendence.com/downloads near the bottom of the page in the System Monitoring Tools
post edited by scook - 2013/08/27 17:05:49
#8
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/27 17:05:36 (permalink)
Oh, cool.  I found the free home edition of LatencyMon

 
I hope I can figure out which device driver(s) is/are causing the problem, and even better, I hope the driver(s) are non-essential.
#9
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/27 21:02:08 (permalink)
OK, the preliminary Latency Mon results are...drum roll:
 
First of all, I did a clean reinstall of Sonar LE, cleaned up my hard drive so there is plenty of space (70Gb) and rebooted between driver install and Sonar LE install.   Exact same Drop out problem (less than a second before screeching to a halt this time).  
 
So I rand Latency Mon and had huge hard page faults.  It pointed at:
 
ACPI.sys
 
This appears to be a fairly common problem.  See (my newbie link function is disabled):
(   social . technet . microsoft . c o m / Forums / windows / en-US / e5738608-59ab-41c1-9ebe-f653b76ccd81 / possible-audio-latency-issues-due-to-acpisys  (remove parens and spaces if you are really curious).  
 
Basically it looks like it is a power management driver issue.  I'm not sure how to resolve that on my laptop.  I currently have power management set to peak (full) performance, so other than finding a new driver or reinstalling with a fresh distro of Windows (I think I'd rather just go Linux if it comes to that) I'm out of luck.
#10
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/28 22:18:05 (permalink)
Because I appreciate hearing updates of solutions other post, I will post my own -- at least interim report.   After two days of mucking around with Windows 7 services, applications, and drivers, I finally have been able to resume recording using Sonar LE without the dreaded "Dropout" notice in the lower notification bar.   I do not know to this day night before last I was able to record for an hour without difficulty and then suddenly the next morning and for two days thereafter I was unable to record more than 5-30 seconds without a dropout!   Here's what seems to be working for now (a bit awkward, but tolerable for non-real time use):
 
1) Disconnected LAN cable and turned off Microsoft Security Essentials (real time antivirus and antimalware -- I think this was probably the biggest part of the hard drive churning I experienced).
2) Turned off Windows Search (Searchprotocolhost.exe was taking up a lot of resources - perhaps indexing every file -- I think in either System Configuration utility or services.msc)  This disabled Windows OneNote instant search and I think also the File Explorer "search" bar.
3) Disabled more hidden wireless functions (including Lenovo Access Connections and Profiles - all are related to wireless - this did not seem to improve things, but I don't use wireless at home anyway - I'll worry about travel later)
4) Religiously closed EVERYTHING else on computer - especially Firefox browser
5)  Gave up completely on ASIO drivers for my UA-25EX even at 44.1k sample rate.  Could not get Sonar LE to record more than 5 seconds with them installed, even at the safest settings.   Also failed with WASAPI mode.  Instead, used  WDM/KS driver mode tied to my USB sound card and set Mixing Latency at 10 buffers each maxed out to 347.2 msc (effect latency at 44khz 3124.9msec) and left file system buffers at default 256kb I/O playback and record size with audio driver bit depth of 24.   I have not had a single dropout since.
 
Now for a personal comment:   I read someone online that audio computer users are 'bottom feeders' and must be satisfied with the situation 'as is'.  I could not disagree more.  It is frankly ridiculous that in this year, 2013, with a i3 CPU (2 processors, 4 hyperthreads), on a machine that can easily reconstruct an MP4 full screen video in real time with excellent audio to boot, that it is SO DIFFICULT to simply record audio or play it back in something approaching real time!   3 seconds of effective latency is bizarre and ridiculous.  
 
I know Windows is not a 'real time' time Operating System, but is it so dang difficult to design an operating system that IS real time, or at least can allow user to easily and temporarily and safely give exclusive control a single application like Sonar (working together with a USB sound card?)
 
I have used computers since the Atari days with Dr. T Midi software (1988 to be exact), and I keep dipping my toes back into the water hoping against hope that someone has solved this seemingly insoluble problem:  Real time Audio.   If we can do 3D game graphic rendering in real time at 60 fps, why can't we render simple audio streams on a much lower powered computer?  
 
And my final comment for those who say "have a dedicated i7",   computers are multifunction devices and should be designed that way.  I should not have to completely mutilate my system configuration beyond recognition (and frankly, now it is beyond system restore capability) just to use one application.
 
I don't think I am alone in thinking this as googling the internet for the last two days found plenty of issues with the 'lower' power laptops (which incidentally would have been considered nearly super computers 20 years ago).
 
Rant over, but two days of time wasted is a bit rich for me and it will probably be a while before I do much more with audio on Windows at least!  
#11
Cactus Music
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/08/29 00:02:59 (permalink)
My wife has a Lenovo i5. Windows 7 pro 64 bit, 6 gigs of RAM. 7200 RPM drive.  My old Acer died and I had to borrow it to do a live recording session. It is her work computer and set up by the IT guy for remote access of the dental office management software and email. She uses it from home etc. So I was not about to tweak any settings or shut off processes. I ran DPCLAT and it was down in the green , no spikes...I was impressed, this should not be , WiFi was on, MS security and all sorts of remote stuff,, I installed Sonar 8.5 and my Tascam drivers and recorded 3 hours of 8 track @ 24/48.
So I find it amazing that you are having so much trouble with a very similar computer.  
 
I do know that having a nice clean 7200 RPM hard drive is very important for audio recording. 
I'm glad you brought your down to 70 gigs free as I was going to say that was your problem. 
One thing is you seem to have a lot of stuff installed and I don't recommend that. My wifes machine ( and my desktop DAW) has very little installed. The IT guy likes it that way and he probably did the correct performance tweaks. 
 
Window 7 pro is probably a better OS for a DAW too. 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#12
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/05 15:56:41 (permalink)
I'm very happy for you, Cactus Music.  I'm glad your wife's work computer i5 with 7200 RPM drive could record live audio and run Sonar 8.5.  However, that does not really help me.
 
>>One thing is you seem to have a lot of stuff installed and I don't recommend that.
 
Why not?  Because software designers are hopelessly wasteful or greedy in using resources?   Why should I have to pay for their laziness?  Why do I need to buy a dedicated computer for every potential application?  That is not only financially and ecologically unfeasible, it is also inconvenient.  The whole point of a programmable computer is to allow one piece of hardware to do multiple things depending on what the user tells it to do.   It would also be very inconvenient to have separate computers for each type of application.   
 
This is a software design problem, not a hardware problem.  There is no reason that OS's and applications could not be designed to play nice (in other words, go into hibernation when not needed).
 
Obviously what we have is an operating system design failure.   Not a hardware problem, it's a software problem.   My point was that an i3 M390  dual processor 2.67Ghz with 8Gb ram (7.8 usable) and 64 bit Windows 7 pro OS and an external UA-25SX sound card doing all the processing SHOULD be able to manage a simple audio record session with elbow room to spare.   5400 RPM drive MIGHT be an issue if I were doing video, multitrack with lots of cuts, or something, but NOT audio. Just count the cycles per second and weep. 
 
There is no way for me to determine with any degree of confidence in a reasonable amount of time (I do have a life) wherein the problem lay, but after disabling Windows Search completely, turning off MSE completely, disabling my (wired!) LAN, AND monkeying around with the USB sound card drivers and cranking the latency up to the vicinity of 3 seconds, I WAS able to complete the recording of an full audio book with absolutely no dropouts.  Wow!  What an accomplishment!  I hope the laptop was having a background process withdrawal attack!
 
I guess my real beef is that computers used to do one thing at a time.  I know it is nice to have lots of stuff going on in the background when we are just browsing the web or doing email, but it is a waste of computing resources and a complete design failure that they do not allow us the option to easily shut everything off and effectively turn the entire resources of the powerhouse in our lap to what the user chooses.   I'm sick and tired of computers trying to think they know best and not giving the user a user-friendly way of choosing to promote or veto extraneous housekeeping (like indexing the drives, networking, or sending backup copies to the NSA).   ;-)
 
It seems a shame to me that the awesome powers of our CPU's should not have a real time capability option.   Reading up on this over the last week has convinced me it is still VERY non-user friendly, but may be possible by completely re-jiggering one's OS.
 
My point was that an i3 with 5400 drives SHOULD be able to manage 2 tracks (actually single mono track!) recording without Sonar 8.5 screeching to a DropOut halt without gutting and reconfiguring.
 
 
#13
Cactus Music
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/21 18:34:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DellAnderson 2013/09/22 19:17:17
Yes, but if there ARE background apps hogging your CPU then audio will possibly drop out. For the last 13 years or more this is all very well documented in every audio recording forum on the net. Computers were not really built with recording audio in mind so we as technicians DO need to make modifications to allow un-interrupted audio streaming. That is why I was initially impressed that my wife's laptop worked so well without my intervention. But it was certainly not stock set up and a competent tech had removed the bloatware etc. 
 
Some laptops are hopeless because of possible conflicting configurations. My son bought a higher end $1,600 Dell laptop that you could not stop the red spikes. Long story but he had to give up, can't get your money back because technically a red DPCLAT spike is not on the radar of Dells support team. As far as anyone could tell it was somewhere in the BIOS and not to be disabled. He even installed both Ubuntu ( Linux) and Mac OS 10? in different  partitions. Same results. He is very advanced in understanding this stuff being a marine instrumentation tech.  
So the spikes can be BIOS related and absolutely nothing to do with your OS or DAW software. Certain combinations of hardware just seem to cause havoc. 
 
I highly recommend Wave Lab 7 elements for the work you are doing. 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#14
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/21 19:14:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DellAnderson 2013/09/22 18:19:36
I couldn't get rid of the Red Spikes either.  But by disabling (supposedly non-active) stuff (including wireless lan driver and Windows Search) as well as increasing CW latency I was able to record an entire book in flawless mono!    The theory that somehow the BIOS is to blame makes some sense, although I have a hard time imagining there could possibly be that much BIOS overhead - at least accidentally -- perhaps the BIOS maker's intentionally cripple the time responsiveness of the BIOS to prevent our laptops from competing with whatever it is that professional audio workstations use.

However I am not quite willing to concede defeat to computer hardware manufacturers.   Audio visual is HUGE on personal computers (why else would we have 16:9 wide laptop screens when a vertical orientation would be MUCH better for reading PDF's?) but somehow, no one in the music world seems to be complaining loudly enough for the laptop manufacturers to hear.
 
I am not surprised your son had problems iwth Ubuntu, which I consider another bloated OS.  He might try 64 Studio or perhaps Puppy Linux, far more responsive in my experience, and 64 Studio is set up for audio from the start, although it has some limitations for general usage.  I did not install it on this laptop because I dislike the idea of having to devote an entire, multi-purpose computing machine to one application.
 
Bottom line a dual 2.67 Gigahertz CPU laptop (Gigahertz:  A unit of frequency equal to one billion (109) hertz. Also called gigacycle.*)  should be major overkill for recording only 44.1khz audio especially when the DAC is an external sound card doing all the heavy lifting!  (Kilohertz:  A unit of frequency equal to 1,000 hertz.)**   All the CPU is really having to do is paint the GUI screen and channel the resulting stream of bits to the proper hard drive sectors!   What could the OS (or BIOS as you state) be possibly doing that requires so much attention and is not easily turned off with a single switch?
 
* thefreedictionary.com / gigahertz
** thefreedictionary.com / kilohertz
 
 
post edited by DellAnderson - 2013/09/21 19:16:51
#15
Cactus Music
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/21 21:50:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DellAnderson 2013/09/22 19:09:57
Of course I cannot answer that with any insight beyond my own personal experiences. 
 
Beside my wife's, I have used 2 old laptops both from 2004 vintage with 1.5 Gigs of RAM and around 1.5 Ghz Processor ( single).They have(had) 7200 RPM drives  I have recorded hours and hours both 2 track to wave lab and up to 14 tracks to Sonar. This is XP SP3 32 bit.
The DPCLAT was way out of line on them. These laptops both had only basic software like Word and Photoshop and you are correct, this stuff doesn't matter unless it is set to auto update itself. Easy to stop all those type of processes in "msconfig"  
But what I found was really only 2 things made the big difference, Wireless card and battery management. 
 
 
My son only tried the other OS systems to experiment with why he was getting the spikes and therefore dropouts and issues with audio recording. He was exactly where you are at.  He deleted them after the experiment failed.
He eventually gave up and he bought a basic Acer laptop for $600 that has worked without issues since. He took DPCLAT on a USB stick to Future shop and they let him run it on a few machines he was looking at.
What he found with most laptops was that just disabling the wireless card would put it in a steady low green. 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#16
spacealf
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/22 17:20:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DellAnderson 2013/09/22 18:19:19
I take it you are using Windows 7? Well, if you are, then turn off all the automatic stuff Windows 7 does.
Schedules for defrag, updating Windows, anything and everything. Set Power to always on, and anything else you may find in Control Panel.
 
Windows is always set up for general computing, for recording or using it as a DAW, you have to tweak Windows to perform and not do what it wants to.
 
I guess I can not explain it all, and it will take some time to thoroughly go through Control Panel and turn off automatic things it does, and thoroughly check out your computer.
 
I have a ACPI x64 computer, and the drivers are from Microsoft, if you have manufacturer's drivers (which does not seem like it should be) then perhaps there are updates for your computer. I don't use Wi-fi and it should be disabled in Device Manager - Right click on Computer and then get up Device Manager or find it in Control Panel. It can be Re-enabled when you want to use it. I do it all the time and in the Local Areal Connection made a Desktop icon link so I turn it off or on (Disable or Enable) when I want to use the Internet. Otherwise it is off. I don't use Wi-fi at all and even took it out of my computer I use cable so I never use Wi-fi. Perhaps you do, perhaps it can be disabled and reenabled like I do for my Internet Connection.
 
If nothing else there are articles on the Internet for tweaking a Windows 7 OS computer for audio recording probably, but I went through the computer myself and found out all Windows 7 does. It does this because most people using a computer do not know what they are doing.
 
http://s4-us3.startpage.com/do/search?cmd=process_search&pid=49dcb964aae1d19dada2683b3bc356d4&nossl=1
 
The main bottom line is if you have not set up the computer, then set it up to record with on audio.
It is not set up, until you do that, because most people do not use a computer for that anyway, so Microsoft in their infinite wisdom set it up for general purpose computing and for people who do not know what they are doing on a computer except to run a program or work a job where someone else sets it up in a Office but at home you have to do that yourself or find out how to do it.
 
Of course then you will have to do some things like defragging the harddrive and updating anti-virus programs and Windows Defender (probably on your computer) and Updating Windows on your own and not allow it to be done automatically. Of course if your Internet connection is off, then it can not do that until you are connected again.
 
If bad device drivers, or anything like that, perhaps there is an update for your computer from the manufacturer - I got one for Intel Chip that controls something to do with the Internet - downloaded the program and ran it, and now my computer is updated. I just looked it was Intel Network Connections update program from Intel.
 
Anything that runs in the background can be turned-off, including starting up the computer start programs in Administrative Tools -> System Configuration - (you know that microsoft started that up with trying to make their programs like Office seem to start faster because there is always a little start-up program running when you load up the OS and start your computer. Now, everyone does it, with automatic program update little program or something else that does not need to start up when you start your computer. That is what System Configuration is for - run your computer the way you want to - but do not turn off things that need to run - well it may take awhile to try some things. Like Adobe Update program for Adobe Reader perhaps on your computer - it does not need to run at start-up of your computer - if those programs you feel are interferring then you may want to have Windows not run them when your computer starts up.
 
Well, babbled on long enough, but everything in Control Panel icons should be looked at and set for maximum performance so your computer runs the way you want it to.
 
There is also "verifier" on your computer since Windows 2K. It checks (but usually only for crashes) your drivers to see if a driver is causing a problem on your computer. If nothing else you can put in the driver you wish to check.
Just click START - and in Search (which use to be run but just searching now) then type verifier -and start up the program if you want to see what it does.
 
A lot can be looked up on the Internet in probably several places to tweak your computer and then that will be that.
 
Audio does not take as much as video but still, the computer is not really set up for it.
 
 
post edited by spacealf - 2013/09/22 17:27:46

 
 
#17
spacealf
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/22 18:52:27 (permalink)
Thanks for that (helpful post), I am sure that sometimes if I slow down the post I make may make a little more sense.
It kind of does do that, but actually everything in the computer and looking at it and all of that from Power always being on to USB ports not powered down is somewhere in that OS. Just finding everything may be sort of a problem, but then I hope I am done finding out this stuff on the computer like Windows OS's.
 
http://www.sevenforums.com/bsod-help-support/210693-appcrash-exception-code-c0000005.html
 
Should work for about any error code in windows, perhaps been playing some computer games and graphics card drivers are crashing and stuff with other people's computers, but good to know what can be done in Windows OS's when something happens.
 
May not give all the answers either with Windows programs in that OS, but then usually something will be on the Internet for it.
Like Exception code up there 0X00000005 a generic general error message that means just about anything, but still video drivers (like in a game) can crash the computer to desktop out of the program, and lately it is not the program but the graphics drivers say like from Nvidia and using earlier graphics card from them - in other words there newer drivers do not work with slightly older cards and a lot of players (of games) are complaining.
 
Oh, well that is computers. A mind-headache experience sometimes.
 
Oh, ya, the official microsoft weblink of the link above given in the article forum.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/244617
 
Yikes, I have to do what - just some little bit of humor.
 
 
 
 
post edited by spacealf - 2013/09/22 18:57:56

 
 
#18
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/22 19:02:22 (permalink)
Thanks Spacealf and Cactusmusic.   Very useful info, much of which I have already done but a few new ideas.  All will be helpful to other readers as well.  Spacealf, I was not able to use the link you posted (even manually copying and pasting) although the Search engine looked interesting, it did not seem to find anything useful with the Process_search term(s).    But it did inspire me to further Google searches.  Previous to posting here, I had already spent over 8 hours cumulative searching and tweaking of my system (in addition to disabling Windows search and Lenovo wireless, I also disabled MSE (Microsoft Security Essentials) after pulling the LAN cable and disabling wireless (the latter is harder that it should be for Lenovo - simply turning it off using keyboard shortcuts and so on did not work, I actually physically uninstalled the software, something I hope I do not regret).   I did not have Windows Defender installed (it has been included with and superceded by MSE).
 
I DID find a very useful comprehensive DAW Windows 7 setup guide from Prosonus here (remove the spaces around the '/', I inserted them to defeat the auto-removal of URL links):
 
presonus.com / community / Learn / Optimizing-Windows-Vista-and-Windows-7-for-Music-Production
 
The shear complexity of defeating Microsoft (or other OS) busy-body background tasks points out a huge gap in the OS ecosystem that I think someone will eventually fill.   It simply is not sustainable that people should be forced to make so many relatively semi-permanent changes to a multi-purpose calculating machine simply for one application (audio recording).   Perhaps everyone here can afford the money and space for a 'one-laptop-per-application' ecosystem, but I cannot.  And there is no theoretical reason why an operating system should not be designed to allow "one-click" custom configurations that turn off everything not needed for music making, then allow simple reenabling.  As it is, I will eventually forget to reenable MSE prior to plugging in the LAN cable or make some other simple and avoidable human error.     This is a process design problem, not a technological limitation problem, and if MS (or some other OS maker) wants to gain a major market share in the field of amateur or semi-professional creatives, this would be a fairly good place to start.  Of course, left to corporate wonks, they would probably price such an OS feature out of the range of must of us creatives, so that's why it hasn't happened, just saying.
 
Meanwhile, I already disabled most auto-startup stuff, Aero, indexing, MSE, Wireless, unplugged unneeded USB drives, and so on.   That allowed me to record an entire audio book (monophonic).  When I next have a day to blow I will go through the comprehensive process described in the link above to further optimize for audio.    If this makes my computer unusable for normal things, the changes will not last long though I fear.
post edited by DellAnderson - 2013/09/22 19:05:24
#19
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/22 19:12:06 (permalink)
@Cactus Music - I am surprised your son was able to connect USB cards to computers at the store -- that sounds like a perfect way to insert malware into computers before they are even sold and a reminder that what you buy at a store may not be 'virgin' territory.   Wipe and reinstall?  Hard with no CD.
 
@SpaceAlf - was your second post intended for this thread?   I somehow missed the connection to this subject (Crashing to desktop?  Maybe I missed something...)
#20
spacealf
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/22 20:07:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DellAnderson 2013/09/22 22:13:56
It is not that all of it is needed. Powering down USB ports not in use is not a priority with me. I leave the power up, and the computer powered up all the time. No, not all of has to be done, and Windows Defender never interferred with running audio anyway, and neither does my anti-virus. For me, instead of hibernating anything on the computer, my computer is either started-up from power off (the computer off) or else my computer is on all the way. The point is I guess, do what you want to do as to regards to your computer, and most times most things will not interfere, and the Internet I Enable or Disable all the time, and I turn on my computer all the time and power down completely instead of hibernate. It all takes a little time from Windows Defender running when the computer starts like my anti-virus checking out the computer, but even after that, I can have it running while recording audio or not. Right now, that does not interfere with anything as far as I can tell.
 
the links I gave should have worked,  they worked for me, that is all I can say about it.
 
But just to give you an idea of what can be done with an OS, to tweak it persay if you need to.
I don't understand everything in the computer anyway, with some stuff so I may look at it and not do anything with it. But with what I have found out, the only things I do manually, is once a month on or after the second Tuesday, is the time for Windows Update. Once a month probably is enough. Anti-virus everyday, but I choose to do that manually an it usually takes a minute. (unless it was on my XP computer and then since it had been a month not using it - I had 120 files to download - it still updated and everything that was needed was done on that computer).
 
Defragging the harddrive, I do myself, since I have partitions on my harddisk as logical drive letters and that does not take that long, plus the fact that with Windows OS 7 you can do that and still run other programs or be on the Internet while doing it. My harddisk partitions are not monsterous  size partitions, but that will be that. (on XP now, perhaps running defrag program meant that was it, since it was a 32-bit computer, thus a standstill, thus why some people do it at night when asleep.
 
All that is meant is run the computer the way you want to, and be aware that other programs needed to run or not may be running because either the program was not set not to do that, or because the person on the computer had to look at the programs and see what it will do. I guess some people would not bother.
 
But for audio, some of it may help and certainly it won't hurt to know about it though.
Good luck, I can get up to 54 tracks of audio without a problem but Sonar version I have only goes up to 64 tracks. I rather not try that many again, but then again, once I did that and the song - goofy as it may be - is in my signature, because 11 or tracks were just her singing, the rest of the mess was done by me.

Mainly for the yucks of it I guess now.
 
as to that song, if you want to listen to Guitarhacker's or Frank Tanton's version both on this forum with other songs, then the link is her page at Soundcloud. I did it late, just to add to the already 8 trillion version as I say it for the yucks of it I guess.
 
https://soundcloud.com/imogen-heap
 
can do your own version also if you want to, her vocals are down at the bottom of all those same songs.
But after that her page to send it to her is still there also.
I'm done.
 
 P.S. if the link did not work then perhaps it is because it is Startpage, I don't use Goggle directly anymore, not that it makes much difference, but then.........................
https://startpage.com/eng/download-startpage-plugin.html
 
but that may be the reason then for that search link.
 
And for that reason I do not use Bing from Microsoft either.
 
Well, that should do it for a few years, enough babbling.
 
 
post edited by spacealf - 2013/09/22 20:36:48

 
 
#21
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/22 22:13:36 (permalink)
Those Imogen Heap files are a great find!  Made my day.  Listening to your remixes, I am reminded I am way out of my league here, but enjoyed them all (Tanton's "Never Was" was almost too well disguised and only found it after quite a bit of searching).   Maybe something play with another day.  Thanks for sharing.  
#22
Cactus Music
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/23 01:32:36 (permalink)
To re cap what I think I was saying, It's really a crap shoot with computers and especially laptops it would seem on whether they will be DAW ready or not out of the box. And then there are some that just plain are screwed.  
 
Most only need minor tweaks, and shutting off wireless is sometimes all that is needed. I found there was very little to gain DPCLAT wise in shutting down most background processes but I do it anyhow, audio or not, I hate that stuff. I did an experiment once with my old Acer. 
 
I installed  window XP and ran DPCLAT immediately after it booted.  It was spiking red. I disabled the wireless and all was good. 
I then proceeded to install my usual software, including MS Security essentials  and ran updates etc. Still in the green. No Change as long as internet is off. 
 
My Asus Netbook needs the wireless and the  Battery management disabled or it will spike. 
Everything else is standard office set up. I use this for playback at my gigs and 2 track recording. Never has failed me.  
 
My 2004 Toshiba SAT pro needs wireless  off , there's a switch :) and there is no battery management because I couldn't find the drivers for this dinosaur. It is also used for day to day office stuff  and E mail - is in the low green when Wireless is off. 
 
My Wifes Lenovo T420 seems to stay green even with the wireless on? go figure. I'm not sure what the tech did to it, but it's main purpose is remoting into the office server with a high security level for this. It's got major AV installed.  I will buy one when I get rich. 
 
My desktop DAW is under 50ms? and shows no signs of spiking. It has absolutely nothing other than Sonar, Cubase, Win Amp and Wavelab installed. 
 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#23
cwestmont
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/23 15:32:59 (permalink)
DellAnderson, I feel your pain.
 
This seemed to help my situation a month or two ago:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/The-Sonar-x64Windows-7-x64-Install-Tweaks-amp-Compatibility-Thread-m1862515.aspx
 
Hope that helps -- good luck!

My music:
Hummingbird Cinema (vocal tracks, covers and remixes)
Mosaic Manifesto  (remixes and instrumentals)
"If you can solve your problem, then what is the need of worrying? If you cannot solve it, then what is the use of worrying?"- Shantideva

One can acquire everything in solitude - except character. -- Marie Henri Beyle

Windows 7
Intel Core i7-4770 3.4 GHz
8 GigaBytes DRAM
Sonar X3
Roland QuadCapture
#24
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/25 19:08:51 (permalink)
Thanks, cwestmont.  That looks like another really great resource....for next time (I've saved it in my newly bulging MS OneNote "Cakewalk configuration file")
 
Having just spent 4 hours this morning trying (and eventually succeeding) in getting my wireless access turned back on, I don't think I will be using Cakewalk or any audio recording programs on my Lenovo Thinkpad Edge 14 0578-N8U Windows 7 Professional i3 for a while - perhaps not until MS Windows (or some other OS designer what works with my Cakewalk UA-25EX USB external audio card without requiring me to mutilate the whole computer extensively and semi-permanently.
 
I am not an computer ignoramous -- I suppose some would even call me a geek - I have studied assembly programming, C++, networking, web development, Java, cryptography, 3D computer graphics, and video editing.   I don't know it all, there are many things I still don't understand (who does know everything about a modern OS?), but the current level of difficulty MS Windows has in prioritizing Real Time audio recording over background processes is insane and not tending towards either creativity OR time effectiveness. 
 
Even with two days effort, I never was able to stop the red spikes from appearing every 25-30 seconds in DPCLAT.  But I was able to record a complete Audio Book in mono 44.1kHz.  That's all I wanted to do for now.  And it only took 4 times as long as it should have with a User Friendly system.
 
PS By the way, in case anyone else was following this thread from the beginning, the way I reenabled wireless was 1) Device manager enabled 2) Updated wireless drivers 3) Reinstall ThinkVantage System update 4) Reinstall Access Connections  (that's the one I forgot about) 5) Reenter LAN Wireless passphrase (I had completely removed everything -just to be 'sure').
 
Sometime when I have nothing better to do I will read and try the voluminous suggestions on the above links.  Meanwhile, I have other fish to fry.   Thanks to all for the help getting my audio book recorded.
 
 
 
 
 
 
#25
Cactus Music
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/25 21:47:00 (permalink)
You didn't read what I was telling you, Don't blame the OS or Software for DPCLAT spikes,
My son's experiment proved this. The spikes remained the same just like yours no matter which OS he used, He used XP, W7 and then various Linux and even managed to get OS 10.? to run on a PC. The Dell remained unusable for audio. This is what I'm saying, some laptops will not work, ever. The Processor, the RAM all that is not what is preventing the audio, Like I say I can record a whole band live in 14 audio tracks 44.1/24  for hours on end to a 2004 1.7 Mhz with 1.5 G or RAM. The hard drive IS important so I always buy a newer 7200 RPM drive. They are cheap.  
I don't understand why on one hand you say you know your way around a computer and then you had so much trouble with your wireless card. 
Every laptop I've ever used has this either in a Fn key or a hardware switch on the side. 
If not, disabling in device manager and re enabling takes a few seconds. 
You don't have to uninstall the drivers? 
What you need to do is forget that laptop and move on to one that works. This could be used or new. 
This is why my son did the DPCLAT test on the laptops before he would buy it. Virus? 
Why would my son have a USB drive with a virus on it? And people who are trying to sell stuff are very cooperative. 
 
You are wasting your time reading all those tweaks, sure some are useful, but they are not the root of the problem, the hardware is. 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2013/09/25 21:51:03

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#26
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/25 22:59:38 (permalink)
@Cactus Music - I won't be responding to every subsequent question, but your last post had the strong whiff of 'blame the victim laptop' so I will answer what I have time.   And yes, you may be possibly right that it is a hardware issue, but I don't know how you are so sure that my 2012 laptop is physically incapable of real time audio.  The every 25-30 second spike does not really sound like a video card or hard drive issue to me (only gut instinct but it is better than nothing).   It is a very generic Lenovo ThinkPad Edge 14 with dual CPU i3 and 8Gb ram and 5400 RPM drive and can render video in real time so why can't it record low bandwidth audio?   Is it so different mechanically from other computers that it can not record 44.1k audio?  If that it is the case, should not Cakewalk put out an advisory?     Yes, to get multiple audio tracks I'd definitely want to get a 7200RPM drive, but I've been around long enough to know we used to do fine with 5400 so why is a newer, faster computer less capable?  Something stinks here.    Big time.
 
And, in response to your question about your son's intentions:  I did not mean to imply that your son would install a virus on a laptop in a store.  Far be it from me to suspect HIM  in particular.   What your story about him told me was that if a computer store would allow any Joe Customer off the street to insert USB drives into a computer, there is no reason to suspect that this would be a nearly ideal method for a criminal to put malware on a computer.   Just another reason for the truly security conscious to completely wipe a drive and reinstall software prior to using a drive -- probably a good idea anyway, even for a non-display model.  Oh, and in this particular case I would have recommended for his own good that he bring the data in as a non-recordable CD - that way he would be protected from infection.  As it is, even though he came in innocently, he may have picked up a Stuxnet like virus by practicing unsafe USB with his USB stick in the (possibly already tainted) store computers.
 
And yes, I do know about the F9 (wireless off) key, but I still had DPCLAT red spikes with wireless button turned off and some post on this thread continued to repeat the mantra that turning off wireless should be all that is necessary so I suspected perhaps it was not completely inactivated (and only running as a background service or something).  Somewhere I had read that Access Connections still might be an issue unless completely uninstalled (this is one of the undocumented hazards of googling too much!).  Therefore I made sure that it was completely unable to cause problems by disabling it entirely.
 
I hope that clarified things a bit.  And no, I am not going to buy a new computer momentarily just to record mono audio.
 
#27
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/26 13:58:33 (permalink)
This Sound on Sound link is a bit dated, but strongly implicates firmware (BIOS) as a common culprit.  This means that if each Audiophile/ DAW user lobbies the computer companies perhaps they will pay attention when designing their lousy sloppy BIOS firmware.   At least one manufacturer did: (Sorry, I seem to considered a second class citizen here and restricted from posting links, but I will edit the link so it will post but you can still follow it hopefully ):
 
www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=pcmus&Number=588140&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=4
 
The screen captures are convincing to me -- no hardware was changed in some but simply changing the firmware made dramatic improvements.
post edited by DellAnderson - 2013/09/26 14:00:14
#28
DellAnderson
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/26 15:58:00 (permalink)
For those interested in my saga, I am moving the discussion to the Lenovo community forum.  I hope to raise some awareness with the manufacturers.   Using a laptop as a Digital Audio Workstation can no longer be considered an esoteric use of a computer.  Perhaps in 1995, not in 2013.   Here's the link to the page where I posted full details and summary, including links to some of the pages here and a screen capture of my DPCLAT output after most tweaks:
 
forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-Edge-S-series/Thinkpad-Edge-terrible-for-audio-processing/m-p/460041/highlight/false#M3742
#29
Cactus Music
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Re: Dropout problem 2013/09/26 22:42:37 (permalink)
What is learned here is you can't even go by a brand , it's model by model. ( bios by bios?) Therefor the need to run the test before we buy.
 
That is why you either need to purchase with the ability to return the item for full refund, or better yet go into an actual store with staff willing to help you with this. If they are not willing to cooperate then go to one that is. A local repair tech who does a little retail too is the best place , I find they can price match and supply you with top notch service.   
 
DPCLAT will run from a USB drive so you don't have to install it to the machine your testing. Put the app on an empty drive and let the store clerk scan it first. 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2013/09/27 10:08:48

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#30
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