Dropouts

Author
vladasyn
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 565
  • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
  • Status: offline
2011/10/13 00:55:58 (permalink)

Dropouts

I experience many dropouts. It started with Sonar 8.5 and persist in X1. I replaced almost all hardware on my computer, so if it was hardware- it already addressed- the dropouts are still happening. I have 3 Gb of memory, it is 3.6 Pentium 4 single processor. The dropouts happening during Audio playback some time, and often during manipulations with Z3ta 2.1. Some time it would recover but often I have to restart the Sonar. Any suggestions (other than “buy Mac”), please? Thank you.   
#1

22 Replies Related Threads

    Lanceindastudio
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4381
    • Joined: 2004/01/22 02:28:30
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 01:11:13 (permalink)
    Your computer is very out of date.

    What is your sound interface? 

    You are way behind in hardware. Pentium 4 is a dinosaur.

    Lance Jones

    www.zupanovamusic.com
     
    My band ZupaNova EP out now! Get it at the site above!
     
    Asus P8Z77-V LE PLUS Motherboard   
    i3770k CPU , 16 gigs ram
    Echo Gina 3G
    Windows 7 64 bit, Sonar X3c 64 bit
    Lots of plugins and softsynths and one shot samples, loops
    Behringer Mon800
    Gauge ECM-87, MCA SP-1, Alesis AM51 , TLM-103
    Presonus Eureka, Avalon 737sp
    Mackie HR824's and matching subwoofer
    #2
    kooldude
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 24
    • Joined: 2010/12/16 01:18:57
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 01:17:44 (permalink)
    I had issues with dropouts because of CPU power management. Although I'm not sure if P4 had any power management. But you might have to update your HW since it seems kind of old.
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2391656
    #3
    inaheartbeat
    Max Output Level: -77 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 676
    • Joined: 2011/08/11 12:19:15
    • Location: Nashua, NH USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 01:21:51 (permalink)
    vladasyn


    I experience many dropouts. It started with Sonar 8.5 and persist in X1. I replaced almost all hardware on my computer, so if it was hardware- it already addressed- the dropouts are still happening. I have 3 Gb of memory, it is 3.6 Pentium 4 single processor. The dropouts happening during Audio playback some time, and often during manipulations with Z3ta 2.1. Some time it would recover but often I have to restart the Sonar. Any suggestions (other than “buy Mac”), please? Thank you.   

    For sure your processor is out of date and you are probably thin on memory. What type of drives and how many are you using? Have you checked your performance monitor to see if you are swapping to your system drive? I don't get how you replaced hardware with a Pentium 4. That does not make sense to me unless you took something very old and swapped it for something just old.

    PC Audio Labs mobile i7 MC, 3.46 Ghz i7 990X, 12 Gb RAM, 3 750 Gb 7200 RPM drives, 3 USB2, 2 USB 3 ports, firewire, Windows 7 64 bit Pro, Sonar X3e Producer 64 bit, 
    #4
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 09:51:37 (permalink)
    I copy it from another thread:

    Time flies. I spent all my savings on that supercomputer- 2004 was just yesterday. All idea was to have top of the line processor- I was not going to replace it every 3 years after I set it up and configured. I doubt much changed between P4 and Core2 or i7. It is a recording computer- Dell Precision workstation (server)- you supposed to configure it and it should run for years. Well- the only original parts I have left in it is a chip and audio hard drive. 

    I had power distribution problem on a motherboard- I had to replace memory, 2 hard drives out of 3, DVD drive and finally- the motherboard. I thought I had a ghost in a computer- things would just burn randomly- fans would start spinning like crazy or stop, black screen of death, not able to boot... That all fixed- it was the motherboard. The Windows were re-installed from scratch, all drivers reinstalled. No viruses, no junk- only Sonar and drivers.

    I will say it again: this is Dell Precision Workstation. Another words- server. They meant to work for years- not to be replaced every 3 to 5 years. It was not in use heavily, and now it has all new parts. There still new computers released with Pentium 4. It is 3.6 clock speed- they do not get any faster. The drives- SCSI- 15,000 rpm. SCSI used for servers to retrieve heavy load of data. They respond in seconds. Memory is 3 Gb. The system meets and exceeds minimum requirements for Sonar. 

    Audio interface is Helix Phonic Fire Wire 18 simultaneous. I also have Delta 10 10 and M-Audio Ultra 8 R installed, not in use. The Phonic set as master device for recording, clock and playback.
    #5
    don4777
    Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 264
    • Joined: 2004/06/06 17:21:38
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 10:12:26 (permalink)
    From the Cakewalk Sonar Web Pages...  http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/X1-Producer/feature.aspx/SONAR-X1-Producer-System-Requirements

    SONAR X1 Producer System Requirements

    The following are the minimum recommended system requirements for SONAR X1 Producer.


     
    • Windows XP Service Pack 3 (32-bit)/Vista Service Pack 2 (32- or 64-bit)/Windows 7 (32- or 64-bit)*
    • Intel Core 2 Duo E8200 2.67 GHz/AMD Phenom Quad Core 9750 2.4 Ghz
    • 2 GB RAM
    • 1280x800 minimum screen resolution
    • 4.5GB for minimal installation, 15GB for complete installation
    • SONAR on DVD: DVD-ROM, DVD+/-R or DVD+/-RW Drive
    • SONAR download: Broadband or better internet connection for download
    • Cakewalk Publisher requires available web server space with FTP access
    #6
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 10:16:32 (permalink)
    Thank you for the minimums. I assumed it meets. My bad. But still. I heard Sonar don't even utilize multy-cores. Single core 3.6 is not far behind from duo 2.4. The bottom line is- this is what I have. Any thoughts on how to make it work? Thank you.  Next time I promise- I will not spend 4k on computers and remember to replace it when everyone else replaces them :)
    #7
    HNMXPORT
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4
    • Joined: 2010/10/28 08:53:32
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 10:36:39 (permalink)
    Heres my answer  Stop using Z3ta.  I too have an older system running 3.2G processor with 4 GigRam and my system runs fine.  I can play 20+ tracks at the sametime with the needed EQ,Comp,Limit or what effects i need all fed into 8-10 busses with no issues(Until i try to run Z3ta.  So..... I dont use it.)
    #8
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 10:44:11 (permalink)
    Well- there is this big dub step movement- new generation wants to hear sound manipulations- the only way to make it sound dubstep is to use soft synth. I am making experimental song to see how many softsynth tracks it would handle. I also don't understand- after we freeze the track- does it mean- the soft synth is closed? If I want to have 20 Z3ta tracks, with different sound on each track, do I freeze it 20 times- what is the limit? What happens after I freeze soft synth- does it release the memory and resources?
    #9
    konradh
    Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2583
    • Joined: 2006/01/16 16:07:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 12:07:56 (permalink)
    Probably minor compared to the hardware thing, but make sure virus protection is either off or in gamer mode.
    #10
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 14:32:50 (permalink)
    You know- when I installed X1c update, my Norton 360 went right on and removed it, calling it "Cloud 9" software. I had to disable it and reinstall the update, but who knows what else can could remove. I never heard of Gamer mode- not sure Norton has it. Disable and disconnect from network, may be... But I think it is something else. Like the other day it was crashing when working with filters in Z3ta.
    #11
    CjbAn
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 29
    • Joined: 2010/12/27 08:01:59
    • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 14:47:40 (permalink)
    If you have a Firewall running in the machine, that could cause dropouts too... I had to disable my Firewall (Agnitum Outpost) to resolve the dropouts issue.

    Here is the thread:
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2395986

    Sonar X3 Producer | Win 7 64Bit | i5 Quad Core/12GB/2x1TB 7200 RPM | Focusrite Scarlette 18i6 | Korg M50 | HS80Mx2 | Yamaha DTX Multi12


    http://soundcloud.com/tamilcover
    #12
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 15:48:38 (permalink)
    Thank you for sharing, I will try that. I don't have to have it connected- will just unplug Ethernet and disable FW, see what happens... Occasionally it runs background scans and such demanding tasks.
    #13
    konradh
    Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2583
    • Joined: 2006/01/16 16:07:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 16:09:27 (permalink)
    For me, Norton was almost as bad as a virus.  I went with Webroot which has always served me well and which is recommended by several techs and companies I respect.  (Get the one with both anti-virus and anti-spyware.)

    I tried McAfee and ended up with their "security as a service" which required long phone sessions with India and then wrote applications and icons I did not want all over my machine.  I got really frustrated with this and felt I was deceived.

    Kaspersky Anti-Virus is good but not as user-friendly for non-techs.

    Webroot has a gamer mode that keeps it from scanning or interrupting.  When I am recording or mixing, I pull the plug on the Internet and go into gamer mode.  When I plug the ethernet cable back in, I get out of gamer mode.  (You are not unprotected in gamer mode but some of the scans and services don't run.)

    By the way, if you use Firefox (I do) be sure to keep it up-to-date so you don't get stuck with the Google redirect virus which is hard for an anti-virus product to clean.
    Your mileage may vary and I did not mean to end up doing product reviews, but for a music computer, anit-virus is almost as improtant as your DAW.  It's noble to say you won't use Internet on your music machine, but with all the software that requires Internet download and upate, it is hard—plus you have to have a second machine handy for forums, email, posting music online, etc.
    #14
    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
    Cakewalk Staff
    • Total Posts : 2902
    • Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
    • Location: Boston, MA, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 17:57:15 (permalink)
    I heard Sonar don't even utilize multy-cores.

     
    Nothing is further from the truth :) SONAR has actively supported multiple processors/multi-core since SONAR 3.
    While your computer is priobably fine for basic audio processing/light synths, with a single core machine running any sort of complex project with heavy soft synth use you are going to run into the potential for dropouts since all it takes is a single spike in load to cause it.
     
    >> I doubt much changed between P4 and Core2 or i7.
    Besides night and day not a whole lot :)

    Noel Borthwick
    CTO, Cakewalk 
    blog postsminidump / Google+
    #15
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8008
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 18:23:06 (permalink)
    I also don't understand- after we freeze the track- does it mean- the soft synth is closed? If I want to have 20 Z3ta tracks, with different sound on each track, do I freeze it 20 times- what is the limit? What happens after I freeze soft synth- does it release the memory and resources?

     
    This is not what you're wanting to hear... but your current system isn't going to deliver that kind of performance with up-to-date soft-synths.
     
    Next go round, don't bother puchasing a "server".
    Instead, build a custom machine where you have complete control over what goes in.
    Then, several years down the road, you can swap out the CPU/motherboard/RAM... and essentially have a new machine.
     
    FWIW, Sonar makes extensive use of multiple CPU cores...
    There's a *huge* performance leap between the P4 and the latest SandyBridge i7 CPUs. 
    Not saying this to annoy you...
     
    With regards to the existing system, make sure your DPC latency is low/consistent.
    Make sure all drives are operating in DMA mode (not PIO which would kill performance).
    I'd test your system's RAM... and I'd stress-test the system as a whole (to be sure the core hardware is stable). 
     
    The P4 would be fine for tracking and light mixing.  It's not going to have the DSP muscle for dense mixes... or running multiple instances of the better soft-synths.
    If you want to work extensively with soft-synths, you're going to be forced to upgrade.  Doesn't matter what host software you choose (Sonar, Cubase, ProTools, Reaper, etc)...
     
    When you "freeze" a track, the soft-synth and any EFX are bypassed.  If they were not bypassed, they'd double the "frozen" result (which is actually a bounced down audio file - freeze is just a means of automating and making the process fast/convenient).  You can go into the EFX bin... and enable it and apply processing to the frozen tracks (just be sure to turn off the original synths/EFX so you're not doubling them).
    I'm mixing "frozen" tracks for a client right now in X1 Expanded... (working great)
     
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #16
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/13 23:50:13 (permalink)
    Thank you for your replies. I have to get back with ya in the morning. 2 glasses of wine and I cannot focus. Will be back.
    #17
    sykodelic
    Max Output Level: -78 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 612
    • Joined: 2011/05/17 15:44:28
    • Location: Los Angeles, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/14 01:08:23 (permalink)
    vladasyn


    I copy it from another thread:

    Time flies. I spent all my savings on that supercomputer- 2004 was just yesterday. All idea was to have top of the line processor- I was not going to replace it every 3 years after I set it up and configured. I doubt much changed between P4 and Core2 or i7. It is a recording computer- Dell Precision workstation (server)- you supposed to configure it and it should run for years. Well- the only original parts I have left in it is a chip and audio hard drive. 

    I had power distribution problem on a motherboard- I had to replace memory, 2 hard drives out of 3, DVD drive and finally- the motherboard. I thought I had a ghost in a computer- things would just burn randomly- fans would start spinning like crazy or stop, black screen of death, not able to boot... That all fixed- it was the motherboard. The Windows were re-installed from scratch, all drivers reinstalled. No viruses, no junk- only Sonar and drivers.

    I will say it again: this is Dell Precision Workstation. Another words- server. They meant to work for years- not to be replaced every 3 to 5 years. It was not in use heavily, and now it has all new parts. There still new computers released with Pentium 4. It is 3.6 clock speed- they do not get any faster. The drives- SCSI- 15,000 rpm. SCSI used for servers to retrieve heavy load of data. They respond in seconds. Memory is 3 Gb. The system meets and exceeds minimum requirements for Sonar. 

    Audio interface is Helix Phonic Fire Wire 18 simultaneous. I also have Delta 10 10 and M-Audio Ultra 8 R installed, not in use. The Phonic set as master device for recording, clock and playback.



    Asus P8P67 pro, I7 2600K, 8G Kingston Hyperflex, 2 1T WD Caviar Black(sytem,audio), 2T WD Caviar Black(samples), RME Multiface, Roland A500 Pro, Windows 7 Ultimate 64, Sonar X1C, Ableton Live 8, Reason 6, Komplete 7, DCAM Synth Squad, Omnisphere, Stylus RMX, Trillian
    #18
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/14 10:28:55 (permalink)
    I used MacAfee earlier in a day and I did not like it. My cable company offers us free package with the service- it feels shaky. I would say Norton works good, if it did not just remove the Sonar installation. As of Webroot- I have their Spy Sweeper for years. It always detects some kind of cookies, which Norton does not care about. But that program has life of its own, starts whenever it wants, send reminders about missed services, scans for spyware randomly- I am sure there settings to prevent it from doing it, but that is extra work. I have it on my Internet computer, it is Core 2.6 duo and it spikes in resource use every time Spysweeper running, but is quiet when Norton scans. With Norton on a background, I can ever record. 

     

    ~~~~~~SONAR has actively supported multiple processors/multi-core since SONAR 3.


    I don’t know what year Sonar 3 was released- I used Cakewalk, then switched to Logic and returned to Cakewalk with Sonar 4. And I remember very well- it was Pentium 3 and later Pentium 4 era. I can be wrong, but I don’t remember any multicore Pentiums, until later. There was also no 64 bit. I build my workstation in Fall 2004. I had $4000 budget and wanted to get best specs I could get. Hyper-Threading Technology was the hottest think for computers. I went with workstation because it was the only option that did not have 64 bits yet but was compatible if I need it in a future. And there were no multicores. I know because I was monitoring the market for months before I made selection. And in a Spring of 2005 I heard about Sonar 5. So, please, explain what you mean. Also- while we on this topic- may be you or someone else can advise: do I get Quad Core or Six Cores? As stated earlier- my Internet computer is Core 2.6 Duo. I saw the meter that used to me in a right lower corner. It was showing 2 CPUs usage and they would spike one at a time continuously. Is that how we know- it utilizes multiple cores? So if the meter was still there and I had 6 cores- would I see activity on all 6 meters? Wondering how it works.
    “For each processor core that is physically present, the operating system addresses two virtual processors, and shares the workload between them when possible. Hyper-threading requires not only that the operating system support multiple processors, but also that it be specifically optimized for HTT[1], and Intel recommends disabling HTT when using operating systems that have not been optimized for this chip feature.” (Wiki)
    [size=3 font="times new roman"] 
    Also please, define “basic audio processing/light synths” My regular project contains about 64 tracks- about 30% of which are MIDI. It holds between 30 and 40 audio tracks with 5-6 effects at same time. Is this considered to be basic?   

     ~~~~~~~~I doubt much changed between P4 and Core2 or i7.

    Besides night and day not a whole lot :)

    The computer I use for Live performances is Core 2, 2.93 duo with Solid State Drive. Again- best I could get in Lap Tops in 2008. It is 64 bit. Do I get that great feeling of upgrade because it has 2 cores or 64 bit? Not really. In fact I still fighting clicks and pops here and there. Been adjusting Buffers and Latency and it got tolerable on playback, but clicks are still there. It did hang on me few times. I always worry it would do it during the live show, as we run drum and keyboard tracks from it- it would suck if it stops in a middle of the song. And it did it in the studio few times. Did not try to record on it. The soundcard is M-Audio Ultra 8R USB.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~Instead, build a custom machine where you have complete control over what goes in.
    Then, several years down the road, you can swap out the CPU/motherboard/RAM... and essentially have a new machine.  

    Jim, it was custom machine. And I did change the RAM, HDs and Motherboard. I was asking if there is a way to change the processor as well- the guy who changed the motherboard told me certain processors would burn everything if it is not up to specs and stay with what I have.
    [size=3 font="times new roman"] 
    What is DMA mode?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~` When you "freeze" a track, the soft-synth and any EFX are bypassed.  If they were not bypassed, they'd double the "frozen" result (which is actually a bounced down audio file - freeze is just a means of automating and making the process fast/convenient).  You can go into the EFX bin... and enable it and apply processing to the frozen tracks (just be sure to turn off the original synths/EFX so you're not doubling them).
    I'm mixing "frozen" tracks for a client right now in X1 Expanded... (working great)

    When I in a freeze track, the soft synth closes, it has a snow flake next to it and I can not reopen interface. So does it mean- I have to insert new Z3ta instance, is there any way to reuse the one that was frozen?
    #19
    tlw
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 593
    • Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
    • Location: West Midlands, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/14 22:31:28 (permalink)
    As stated earlier- my Internet computer is Core 2.6 Duo


    The computer I use for Live performances is Core 2, 2.93 duo with Solid State Drive. Again- best I could get in Lap Tops in 2008

     
    I strongly suspect either of the Core2Duos you have is more powerful than your Pentium 4. Certainly my Core2Duo 2Ghz laptop with 2GB of RAM is much faster than my old P4 with 2GB (which is now in service as a small server running Linux and handling file backups, mailspooling and a few networking/web related things). 

    My current Core2Quad DAW tower system is a supercomputer compared to the Pentium 4 one. Projects that peaked at about 80%cpu on the P4 run on the Core2Quad at about 20-25% cpu spread across all four cores.
    As for the number of cores that's desirable, "as many as you can afford" is probably the best way to go. Even a Core2Quad will give you a huge improvement over a P4 (you may find you don't need anything more powerful -I've no urge or need to upgrade at the moment, though I usually use hardware synths so my DAW sees less load than one running software synths).
    Having said that, I can run multiple instances of Rapture/DimPro with no problems at all.

    When I in a freeze track, the soft synth closes, it has a snow flake next to it and I can not reopen interface. So does it mean- I have to insert new Z3ta instance, is there any way to reuse the one that was frozen? 

     
    Off the top of my head, clicking on the snowflake button should "unfreeze" the track and any synths/fx it contains. Look up "freeze track" in the Sonar manual/help file.

    Sonar X2a Producer 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
    ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
    Assorted real synths, guitars, diatonic accordions, fx and other stuff.
    #20
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/15 21:16:58 (permalink)
    Oh, I know how to freeze and unfreeze the track. I am wondering what happens when you freeze it- it bounces the audio, ok, but does it release resources or Rapture/Zeta still running? If I freeze 1- Rapture tracks, does it mean that I have 10 Raprure running and using recources, or does it mean- they all closed after I freez them? Thank you.
    #21
    stevec
    Max Output Level: -28.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4662
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 15:05:54
    • Location: Parkesburg, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/16 11:16:38 (permalink)
    As Jim wrote above, Freeze does disable the synth (and FX bin) freeing up those resources.  So if you freeze 10 ZETA tracks you should certainly see a decrease in CPU while disk usage increases slightly.
     
    #22
    vladasyn
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 565
    • Joined: 2005/02/05 00:33:23
    • Status: offline
    Re:Dropouts 2011/10/16 23:50:58 (permalink)
    Thanks. How do I get that CPU meter back? I hide it- was in one of menu options?
    #23
    Jump to:
    © 2014 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1