Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums

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plasmaflow
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2005/06/02 06:47:29 (permalink)

Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums

I am thinking of purchasing either the Drum Kit From Hell Superior from Toon Tracks or the BFD from Fxpansion. Any experience out there with Sonar 4 Producer? Which one is better and why? Thanks in advance.

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    BillW
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 07:21:36 (permalink)
    This may not make a bit of difference to you, but I think BFD's kits ship with only 3 toms whereas in DFHS there are 4. This has kept me from looking seriously at BFD.
    #2
    bmxplosive
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 08:39:30 (permalink)
    I have been using DFHS and it works pretty well. The only thing that is a little weird is trying to use the VST version of the plug. There is something in the way the Cakewalk VST adapter is structured that makes the outputs the plug should be routed to mess up. You can either go through a big process to add several tracks and route the plug to them or simply use the rewire version as I do. With the rewire, I haven't had any problems. One thing that has impressed me about this software is the support. The Toontrack message board is visisted constantly everyday by the guys who actually make the software. They are always quick to help those in need. Toontrack has also just released the Custom and Vintage drum sampler, and it runs through the same plug as the DFHS, so you can use one plug for all the samples.

    DFHS does not come with preset rolls and fills, but BFD does. That is one of the main things I remember reading about when I was trying to decide to. To me the DFHS just sounded better and I can make my own rolls and stuff, so that didn't matter to me.

    Hopefully this has been some useful information to your decision making.

    Best,

    Swaff
    #3
    rileyrooden
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 11:18:27 (permalink)
    Welp.. both have strengths and weaknesses and both are good pieces of software. One thing, however, would make this choice a "no-brainer" is if you ever plan on triggering the sounds with V-drums. DFHS does this flawlessly starting w/ ver.1.3- hi-hat control, cymal chokes, rim shots, the works. BFD has issues w/ roland modules. The hi-hat control is less than perfect and it's difficult to trigger cym. chokes as you need something to convert key-aftertouch to an actual notename (that's been my experience anyway.) They are supposed to be addressing all this in a ver. 1.5 which has been on the drawing board for several months now. If, however, you're not going to be using v-drums... BFD does have a massive "groove-library" you can use to easily and quickly add great sounding drums to your songs. Some people prefer BFD's interface as well. It is much more graphic and it does give you control over distance of mics, etc. As far as sound goes... both are very realistic, professional, and high-quality. Both work very well with Sonar. (I do agree that DFHS is better in Sonar as a rewire device.) I think you do get a larger drum selection w/ DFHS than BFD, unless you get the XFL addon. Both company sites have message boards, in case you're not aware... you might check them as well. Overall.. in my opinion, you really won't go wrong with either choice unless you're using V-drums. If you do plan on triggering these w/ V-drums... I'd go DFHS, no doubts about it.
    #4
    Middleman
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 11:27:12 (permalink)
    If you want a really great user interface, go with BFD

    If you want a really great sound, go with DFHS.
    #5
    FwordNA
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 12:14:21 (permalink)
    Hey BMX, can you refer me to the toontrack explanation of how to get the DKFH to work in Sonar. I don't have rewire and I'm having just the problem you described -- that is, the inability to run the thing as a VST. Thanks!

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    #6
    SurfingMusicMan
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 15:31:07 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: FwordNA

    Hey BMX, can you refer me to the toontrack explanation of how to get the DKFH to work in Sonar. I don't have rewire and I'm having just the problem you described -- that is, the inability to run the thing as a VST. Thanks!


    I have Home Studio and I wrestled with getting DFHS to work w/ it forever. I finally got it to work and now I just keep a template so I don't have to go through the whole process. If you want, we could figure out a way to email my template.

    As far as BFD v. DFHS goes (I don't have BFD), I think BFD is probably a lot more user friendly (DFHS takes quite awhile to learn to use, at least it did for me). However, with DFHS, with the end product you get as many separate tracks of audio as there are mics on a real set when you record, so it IS very realistic. By all accounts, both BFD and DFHS sound incredible, but DFHS is more like dealing with real drums. Plus, I liked the cost difference!
    #7
    mlockett
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 16:57:10 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: FwordNA

    Hey BMX, can you refer me to the toontrack explanation of how to get the DKFH to work in Sonar. I don't have rewire and I'm having just the problem you described -- that is, the inability to run the thing as a VST. Thanks!

    Go to http://www.toontrack.com/index_samples.shtml then click "Download" at the top. you'll be prompted to log in. After logging in, click Free Downloads, then Superior, then Sonar specific. You'll find templates for rewire and VST, I've used both successfully.

    Good luck!
    #8
    FwordNA
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 18:10:46 (permalink)
    Thanks!

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    #9
    jayhill
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/02 20:48:19 (permalink)
    However, with DFHS, with the end product you get as many separate tracks of audio as there are mics on a real set when you record, so it IS very realistic. By all accounts, both BFD and DFHS sound incredible, but DFHS is more like dealing with real drums.


    BFD is also very realistic. BFD has 11 direct mics (tracks) and 3 ambient (stereo) tracks so BFD is, in your words, "more like dealing with real drums" also.

    The 11 direct mics are kick (2), snare (2), hi-hat (1), toms (3), cymbals (3)

    The 3 ambient/stereo mics are overheads, room, and PZM

    I think BFD is excellent. I do not have DFHS so I cannot make comparitive statements.

    Regards,

    Jeff
    #10
    MKS
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 11:23:45 (permalink)
    Use DirectiXer with DFHS. DirectiXer is an easy workaround to the sonar issue.

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    #11
    SurfingMusicMan
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 11:49:57 (permalink)
    BFD is also very realistic. BFD has 11 direct mics (tracks) and 3 ambient (stereo) tracks so BFD is, in your words, "more like dealing with real drums" also.


    I guess I should have explained more clearly. After you are finished programming the drums with DFHS, you "bounce" out the miked tracks, so that you have 10 or so audio tracks (eg, Kick, snaretop, snarebottom, Tom1, Tom2, floortom, high hat, ambience, overhead---these all contain bleeding from the other drums of course). With this process, after you've finished programming and bouncing, the tracks of drum audio look and sound exactly like they would as if you had recorded real drums. If you took your project into a professional studio for mixing of the raw tracks, they would have no way to know you hadn't recorded real drums (assuming you'd done a good job recording). These audio drum tracks are also completely raw (no effects like compression or reverb).

    If I understand correctly, BFD doesn't work this way. I'm not saying DFHS is superior (no pun intended) to BFD, just that the end product is basically exactly what you would get had you actually recorded a drummer, with the limitation of how "realistically" you have done your programming.
    #12
    bmxplosive
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 11:51:15 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: FwordNA

    Hey BMX, can you refer me to the toontrack explanation of how to get the DKFH to work in Sonar. I don't have rewire and I'm having just the problem you described -- that is, the inability to run the thing as a VST. Thanks!


    The forum topic for this issue is on Toontrack's site at http://www.toontrack.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=tips;action=display;num=1081446198 .

    As long as you did the little Rewire install package that came with DFHS, this should work (When you install, you have the option of installing 4 different packages....Superior Drummer, Superior Cocktail, Superior Percussion, and Superior Rewire....all are the msi install packages). Installing the Superior Rewire simply added three EXE files to my VST folder...RewireDrummer.exe, RewireCocktail.exe, and RewirePercussionist.exe. If those files ARE in your VST folder, the process mentioned following should work as Rewire:

    I see you have Sonar 4 PE and that is also what I have. I didn't install Rewire as a program specifically into Sonar, only the install files that came with Superior. I think it just works with DFHS. To use Rewire, I click on the DXi button and then that brings up a little dialogue box. Next, click the + sign and then click on either "RewireDrummer" or "SuperiorDrummer." I can't remember which one it is. When it brigs up the options, the default checks should work, just make sure the Outputs are set to "ALL" and NOT "Only the first output." I hope this works out for you.

    As MKS mentioned, you could use DirectiXer if you insist on using DFHS as a VST (I haven't used this but several people have attested to it's usefulness). The website for it can be found at http://www.tonewise.com/DirectiXer .

    Best,

    Swaff
    #13
    SurfingMusicMan
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 11:51:52 (permalink)
    (assuming you'd done a good job recording).


    I meant to say (assuming you'd done a good job PROGRAMMING).
    #14
    Harvey Cedars
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 15:02:46 (permalink)
    Truthfully I have BFD, Artist Drums, Battery 1 and Studio Kits, And I always wind up using the Old Drum Kits From Hell 1 and DR008 as my drum samples/player of choice. They always just seem to fit into my mixes better than all the fancy schmancy monsta mega drum thingies out there.
    #15
    jayhill
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 16:21:53 (permalink)
    After you are finished programming the drums with DFHS, you "bounce" out the miked tracks, so that you have 10 or so audio tracks (eg, Kick, snaretop, snarebottom, Tom1, Tom2, floortom, high hat, ambience, overhead---these all contain bleeding from the other drums of course). With this process, after you've finished programming and bouncing, the tracks of drum audio look and sound exactly like they would as if you had recorded real drums.



    Unless I'm missing something major in your message, BFD is exactly the same as how you describe above.

    Where did you hear, and more importantly, what did you hear that made BFD somehow different than the process you describe?

    As for bleed, BFD contains this also; however, I tend to use (not all the time though) the solo option for both kick and snare (when bouncing these tracks to audio) to "act as a perfect gate for bleed". I'm finding that I can then raise my ambient (stereo) mics up higher while still maintaining a cleaner and more full sounding mix IMO.

    But yes, the audio tracks that I end up with in BFD (14 tracks) look and sound exactly like real drums, because they are real drums. They have been mic'd with, according to the BFD manual, mics costing in excess of $15,000 each (I believe they were AKG C-12's) and the kits are recorded at 46 (or 48?) velocity layers.

    So the 'quality of actual drum sound' I'm getting with BFD is the same as a drumset mic'd from a professional high-end studio - and I'm sure you feel the same about DFHS. The one drawback (and that goes for any drum modules that are programmed) is still attaining a 100% live sounding performance, although that is starting to get closer and closer, where if the drum programming is done well and some of the Humanize options in BFD are used well, it is now taking some real listening analysis to determine the difference.

    Regards,

    Jeff
    #16
    kab
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 16:57:33 (permalink)
    I dont have any experience w/ BFD, but am totally happy w/ DHFS. My wish list for this app is quite small indeed, and the app is well suited towards rock drumming.

    whereas in DFHS there are 4


    The Sonar kit in DHFS can have 5 toms on it

    In any case, both seem to have gotten thier samples from actual recorded kits. From what I read, it does look like you can bigger / more varied kits with DHFS, but also need a pretty hefty rig to use it if you arent a bit careful w/ what options you select. (2gb of ram works well for it). Also know that there are no effects whatsoever on any of DHFS's sounds, so to get high end results, you'll be doing a certain amount of tweaking after you bounce your tracks.

    If you have the rig, and don't mind a quirky install and workflow, I'd say DHFS is what you want.



    #17
    j boy
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 17:21:40 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Harvey Cedars

    Truthfully I have BFD, Artist Drums, Battery 1 and Studio Kits, And I always wind up using the Old Drum Kits From Hell 1 and DR008 as my drum samples/player of choice. They always just seem to fit into my mixes better than all the fancy schmancy monsta mega drum thingies out there.


    I'm with you there, Harv.

    I'm using Toontrack's Drumkit From Hell 2 precisely because I can't see loading up 35-40 GB of samples on my hard drive. Both Toontrack (DFHS) and FXpansion (BFD) market their respective mega-sampled offerings to simulate real drums. Well, I've worked with real drummers and they don't haul twenty drum kits around with them.. they've got one really good kit. And that's all I really need if I'm trying to convince listeners that I used a real drummer on my tracks.

    BTW - I think both DFHS and BFD should be available in a "lite" version. Well, that's sort of what DFH2 is I guess.
    #18
    SurfingMusicMan
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 17:51:49 (permalink)
    the audio tracks that I end up with in BFD (14 tracks) look and sound exactly like real drums


    I didn't know BFD gave you audio tracks like that. If thats the case, I would have to think that BFD is the superior product because it has an easier to use interface, you have control over where the mics are placed (DFHS doesn't have that ability), and it apparently has humanizing options (DFHS has random hits, but not a humanizing option).

    I think both DFHS and BFD should be available in a "lite" version.


    I agree. I think its ridiculous to have all those types of drums. Of course, since I have all the options with DFHS, I'm always fiddling with it, which is kind of fun. But all I really care about is having 1 (ok, maybe 2) good set(s). I purchased DFHS because of the bleeding and random hits capabilities.
    #19
    j boy
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 18:59:20 (permalink)
    FWIW the user interface (basically N.I. Kompakt) in DFH2 isn't much of an issue for me, as it doesn't get come into play very much in my workflow. Choose your set then you're done with that. I guess the GUI in BFD is fun, but that's not what I'm after at the end of the day.

    Most of the time I spend in mixing the individual tracks in Sonar, especially in finding the right combinations of compression, EQ, reverb, etc. and also the little tricks in MIDI like doubling a cymbal hit on the left with one on the right to get a fuller sound but with different velocities for right and left. The biggest challenge personally is in EQing cymbals and hats to sound real. Any suggestions are always welcome.
    #20
    FwordNA
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 19:15:19 (permalink)
    Hey MKS, where does one get the Diretixer? Allz I really want from dkfh is one acoustic drum kit to add in to my tunes. I don't care whether the kit has a felt mallat or whatever. I'm easy to pls. Typical of how I do things, I bought dkfh 2 and come to find I have to down load drum maps, blah blah... And I'm still trying to master sonar. so, i say to myself, throw away dkfh and use the cheesy tts-1 or find something simple and easy, with all appropriate apologies to those here who elevate toil to some higher value. For me, I use to play music, but have parkinsons. so I'm creating music, but I am not into the tech side, but can't really avoid it, you know what i mean, but surely I don't worship it as an end in itself. I just want easy -- sorry guyz!

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    #21
    j boy
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/03 19:40:19 (permalink)
    FWordNA, it isn't that big a deal to create (not download) a drum map. You only have to spend a half hour or so and do it once and then it's done. Check out the manual, it's easy, believe me.
    #22
    bmxplosive
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/04 03:00:05 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: FwordNA

    Hey MKS, where does one get the Diretixer?


    ORIGINAL: bmxplosive

    As MKS mentioned, you could use DirectiXer if you insist on using DFHS as a VST (I haven't used this but several people have attested to it's usefulness). The website for it can be found at http://www.tonewise.com/DirectiXer .
    #23
    kiwisdontdrinktea
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/04 05:09:57 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: jayhill

    However, with DFHS, with the end product you get as many separate tracks of audio as there are mics on a real set when you record, so it IS very realistic. By all accounts, both BFD and DFHS sound incredible, but DFHS is more like dealing with real drums.


    BFD is also very realistic. BFD has 11 direct mics (tracks) and 3 ambient (stereo) tracks so BFD is, in your words, "more like dealing with real drums" also.

    The 11 direct mics are kick (2), snare (2), hi-hat (1), toms (3), cymbals (3)

    The 3 ambient/stereo mics are overheads, room, and PZM

    I think BFD is excellent. I do not have DFHS so I cannot make comparitive statements.

    Regards,

    Jeff


    Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.

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    #24
    bmxplosive
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/04 08:04:47 (permalink)


    Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.



    Unless I am thinking something different, DFHS allows you to tune each drum also. There is a pitch knob where you can increase or decrease pitch. There is also a fade knob, where you can fine tune to cut off as much or as little of the drum's ring sustain. Someone mentioned BFD having a humanize feature too...DFHS has "Random" and "Alternate" options in which I believe change the velocity randomly and alternate which hands make the hits (L and R).

    I think what it is all going to come down to is which kits and sounds does plasmaflow think sound best. If there is fear of not being able to make good fills, rolls, etc, then maybe BFD is the best option. If having a large set of percussion instruments is wanted in addition to drumkits, DFHS would be a good option. We've seen here that there are happy users on both sides of the fence. Both options sound amazing. I would suggest really taking time to listen to the demo sounds and then making your choice.

    In my opinion, the biggest thing to look at, besides how they sound, is:

    BFD has predefined rolls and fills - could make your programming easier
    DFHS has bleeding - might be some sound you are specifically looking for

    BFD does not have a set of percussion instruments other than drums, as DFHS does
    DFHS has issues with Cakewalk's VST and Rewire or a workaround is the solution (BFD doesn't seem to have this issue, at least I haven't heard anyone say anything about it)

    BFD sounds - http://www.fxpansion.com/product-bfd-mp3s.php

    BFD users' work
    http://www.blakelindberg.com/mp3/wobblee_4_25_05.mp3
    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/kidloop_music.htm

    DFHS sounds - http://www.toontrack.com/demos.shtml

    DFHS users' work
    http://guitarbattle.cifraclub.terra.com.br/mp3/aisse-gartner-heart-heat.mp3
    http://www.mrgroove.nl/songs/got_to_go.mp3


    I think either way will be a good turnout.

    best,

    Swaff
    post edited by bmxplosive - 2005/06/04 08:06:50
    #25
    Middleman
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/04 15:11:16 (permalink)
    I finally got the DFHS Rewire working which is a world better than the VST in Sonar. Add the M-Audio Trigger finger and you are not far from the real thing. Having a real drummer program takes it within 95% of real tracking in my opinion.

    Anyone know why so many tracks are created using the Rewire plug in? I have sounded all the mics and drums and some of the created tracks seem to have no use.
    post edited by Middleman - 2005/06/04 15:14:06
    #26
    plasmaflow
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/04 19:31:08 (permalink)
    Thank you to all who responded - the forum is great for so many reasons but the experiences of other members is paramount to me. Choosing gear and software can be expensive. Any help given to an individual like myself before any purchase is invaluable. Both are great products but I think BMXPlosive is correct - my ears will have to make the decision.

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    #27
    Qwerty69
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/04 20:02:34 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: bmxplosive



    Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.



    Unless I am thinking something different, DFHS allows you to tune each drum also. There is a pitch knob where you can increase or decrease pitch. There is also a fade knob, where you can fine tune to cut off as much or as little of the drum's ring sustain. Someone mentioned BFD having a humanize feature too...DFHS has "Random" and "Alternate" options in which I believe change the velocity randomly and alternate which hands make the hits (L and R).

    best,

    Swaff



    Wrong again. BFD also allows tuning of each kit piece, fade options and individual drum 'dampening' is being added in the soon to be released free update to v1.5. BFD also allows automatic velocity and timing randomisation.

    Q.
    #28
    FwordNA
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/04 21:22:48 (permalink)
    Hey jboy, are you talking about the sonar manual? what page? dkfh's help mostly concerns kompakt, which is way too complicated for me. but if there is a way i can create a drum kit in sonar, great. right now, when i load dkfh 2, it chokes my system, after making me wait, and telling me i'm running out of memory. i have 1 gig of ram -- sheesh, what does the program want?

    Pentium, 2.4 Mhz, 1 GB RAM,
    Windows XP Prof.
    Edirol FA-66, Firecard 400
    Sonar 4.04 Prod. Ed.


    #29
    bmxplosive
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    RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums 2005/06/05 02:36:15 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Qwerty69


    ORIGINAL: bmxplosive



    Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.



    Unless I am thinking something different, DFHS allows you to tune each drum also. There is a pitch knob where you can increase or decrease pitch. There is also a fade knob, where you can fine tune to cut off as much or as little of the drum's ring sustain. Someone mentioned BFD having a humanize feature too...DFHS has "Random" and "Alternate" options in which I believe change the velocity randomly and alternate which hands make the hits (L and R).

    best,

    Swaff



    Wrong again. BFD also allows tuning of each kit piece, fade options and individual drum 'dampening' is being added in the soon to be released free update to v1.5. BFD also allows automatic velocity and timing randomisation.

    Q.


    Wrong again? I am confused? What did I say wrong first, and what was wrong second? I think you might have misunderstood my post. I was simply stating that DFHS has some of the same (or similar) features that someone else said BFD has. I wasn't saying BFD doesn't have those things, or that they are not as good as the ones in DFHS. Sorry if I offended you somehow, but I definitely wasn't saying anything negative to BFD.

    Swaff
    #30
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