Drum Loops or Drum Programs?

     It appears that most people who are serious about drums use the popular drum programs like EZ Drummer, Superior Drummer, Addictive Drums, Session Drums, etc. I have several of these two and have worked with them but I never was convinced that they sounded any better or were any better in other ways than good drum loops, such as Drums on Demand.
     Personally, I'm not a drummer and I'm not a programmer, and I've never really liked working with midi. I can't imagine ever working with the piano roll or drum maps, or anything above entry level use.  I'm not going to go in and adjust settings for each individual drum and mix them, and go to any kind of elaborate or even semi-elaborate procedure. All of that is its own specialty and art.
     We've always gotten a great tone with Drums on Demand, and other loops too, especially now that there are so many presets on reverb and EQ to really make them pop. I can't imagine any basic beat or drum part that a drum program can do that I can't find something exactly or very close to it on Drums on Demand. Some people have all the ability and patience to sit there and program drugs and work with maps and midi stuff, but that's just not me. However, I don't mind working with loops and even slicing and dicing them for different beats or patterns, fill, turnarounds, etc. that I need. 
     The friend I collaborate with the most also uses Sonar and various loops including Drums on Demand, and we're trying to keep as much as we can on our DAWs the same so we can swap projects back and forth if I want to add a guitar or he adds bass, or if either of us wants to tinker a little with the drum EQ or reverb. I don't see either of us ever getting seriously into drum programming or working with drum maps or a lot of midi.
     Finally, we're not trying to cut an album. We do home demos. We do this for fun, and we also pitch some of the songs in Nashville. No one has ever complained about the quality or sound of the drums or the song.
     That being said, is the main difference between midi and drum loops just in the work flow, or is there something significant -- not something minor -- that is better about programming drums? The Drums on Demand sound fine to me. I'm just not going to ever get into any kind of serious programming because I don't like it and I'm not good at it. And, I like to keep things as simple as possible.
     And lastly, if I want some fancy drum track that I can't achieve with loops I can get some friends in Nashville to do them in their home studios pretty cheap and they sound great. Today, especially with the variety and quality of triggered drum sounds, plus having a real drummer, I just can't see why I would need to spend time trying to learn midi drum programming.
    So, for my purposes as described, is there any real advantage of midi and programming over loops?
    Thanks!
DS

You're not wrong.  Drum loops are awesome and there is literally anything out there you could want to use.  But honestly the only real reason for programming your own drums is for the over all control you can get with each hit and each sound, and of course to say the line is your unique line, but if you're not interested in controlling every aspect of the drum line yourself then really there is no need to make it yourself.
 
I myself have not used drums loops too often because I like to mess around with the sounds and alter each hit and sound to fit my end goal, personally I use Session Drummer 3 cause it allows me to insert any drum hit I want and I do have a huge library of hits to choose from.  But I have, just this passed week starting looking into some of the many drum loops I also have and have been blown away with the ease of using them. 

Thatsastrat
Not if you have already decided that you would not benefit from there use. The reason that I like drum programs over loops is the ability to change the tones of the drums, by using different kits, or kit pieces to try to get close to how I imagine how I would like things to sound. You can not do the same with loops.

Although now having Drum replacer altering loops in the same way is increasingly similar

Drum loops can actually sound better than these programs as they allow for a level of articulation not possible with MIDI systems.  (see the program "Drum Core" for evidence of this they offer loops and the midi equivalent of thousands of grooves - recorded from the same source.  The loops are more detailed in what they can sound like).  
 
However loops offer a workflow where you are basically stuck with what it is and it needs to be within a few BPM of your project if you want it to stay sounding great.  
 
Using drum loops tends to dictate to you what you will do, not the other way around and for a lot of people that is limiting when they are trying to create their own work.
 
Try taking a drum loop and creating a verse, chorus, bridge with some variation throughout.  That takes quite a bit of work, and luck to match a song that you wrote without using the loops.  
 
Drum loops can be fun and easy if you just want a static groove to jam over, I like them for that.  But if you are trying to create your own piece, that is where the MIDI based drum programs can really shine.  

I've done a few songs with drum loops. Mostly I use one of the many drum programs I have (EZD, Superior, BFD3, Steven Slate SSD, Addictive, Platinum Samples Accent, Jamstix and libs in Kontakt/EastWest) and I have used live drums and enhanced them with Slate's Trigger2 or Drumagog.
 
Loops felt the most limiting to me (as others have noted here).
 
But whatever works for the OP, bless his heart, he should keep doing what works for him.

Like the OP says, you can slice and dice loops to build your own patterns, but I personally have never used loops, the PRV is so familiar and comfortable for me that I can't imagine doing it any other way, except for maybe hiring a drummer and telling him/her what to do. 
 
I guess it's all in what you're comfortable with. The better you know and understand a given tool or technique, the more the tools get out of your way and allow you to focus on the music. In that regard, if loops do it for you, that should be where you work. On the other hand, I suspect (but I don't know for sure) that MIDI gives you some capabilities that are harder to manage with loops.
 
For example, I think Addictive Drums for one is pretty smart about using different samples for the same piece of kit based on velocity settings, which is one area that I would think MIDI might be superior to loops. I monkey with velocity all the time and would miss that feature an awful lot if loops didn't allow me to do the same thing.

Drums on Demand has some great sounding stuff (Billy Martin is my favorite drummer - and he created some of their content - such as the retro 60s loops).  However, I would think if I limited my music creation to their packs, it would be expensive pretty quickly.
 
Working in a MIDI groove environment with a "player" like EZ Drummer or AD means all you need to buy is more MIDI grooves to get new material to work with.  This also means you can create homologous sounding tracks as they are all playing through the same "kit."  If you are stuck with loops, it can become very difficult to create an "album" that feels like it was recorded using the same kit and the same way.  
 

There's two words I hate to use and I guess I'm about to use them both here. I still have ProTools on an Apple MacBook that had the good Superior Drummer template on it. I'll see if it's still there and play with it some and see how I like it.
It does sound like you guys who are serious about drums all prefer midi and these various drum programs mentioned.
Thank you again. This has been a very informative thread for me and may alter my opinion and use of "computer" drumming.
DS

I've still got Logic Pro X from when I was still planning to use Apple. I can check it out. I'm not opposed to composing drum tracks on other machines and importing them. But like you said, this can be a very tedious and time consuming process, and even more so if you don't have a passion for it.
Good ideas on here for sure! Thanks guys!
DS

tlw
There's a role for loops, there's a role for more realistic drum parts and there's a role for the more "traditional" kind of drum machines like the 808 and 909 and their more sophisticated modern descendants such as the Elekton drum machines.

It all depends on what you want the music to sound like and what kind of feel you want it to have. 

Absolutely!! I use both, depending on context. For loops, I love the Discrete Drums loops. Drummers who've heard my neo- album are convinced I used a real drummer...well actually, I guess did. But two of the songs used programmed drums, and no one noticed.

I program all my own drums. I always have since the inception of the drum machine...which back then took months to learn the interface of a drum machine. the manuals looked like a Sears catalog.
 
anyway, I find samples, loops, programing your drums are a great tool to use while creating the foundation of your work/songs.
but when its crunch time and you want the best possible sound. mic up a kit and get yourself a drummer.
I know this is not practical for everyone but real drums blow away any sample made.
there are certain nuances about a drummer, real drums that can not be captured no matter what you do.
even a poor drummer itself can bring a lively feel to something any sample can not. which is a robotic, flat totally in time drum line.
I know some will say, but theres things you can do to make them sound real. those people are right, there are things you can do to make drums sound real. trust me i know. ive made a video on it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruAnAPR6-hQ
 
but that's just it...the difference between "Sounds real" and "Real" are miles apart. 

JustGotPaid
 
So for me, I have the thinking that you do. If I want a really good sound like a live drummer, then I think it's best to just get a live drummer. When I started digital recording several years ago I went to some workshops in Nashville to learn something about it. One speaker talked a good bit about drums and when it was over I asked him about programmed drums and drum loops and he said, "A real drummer is always going to sound better." I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but his point was well taken.

It might be how you define "real drummer."  Plenty of drummers can't keep tempo, over play, on top of the challenge of recording drums.  
 
Drum loops are frequently made by real drummers in ideal recording situations, so saying a "real drummer" sounds better is an oxymoron.  
 
A great drummer playing to your song is ideal.  But it isn't unusual for drum software to create a much more polished sounding recording if the drummer isn't top shelf and the recording environment isn't great.  
 
In fact, many studios record drummers without cymbals and have them trigger AD or Session drummer.  It is becoming much more common as you can get a far more controlled end result that way.  Virtually all of those "midi" drum loops are created by real drummers also.  

JustGotPaid
With all due respect, we're just getting into semantics now, and re-stating the obvious with nit-picky phrasing analysis.

Yet you say you are familiar with all of these MIDI drum programs, but fail to state the obvious that they are essentially no different than your drum loops unless you want to take them a step further and alter them.  They do have the advantage of being able to be used over any BPM, not just the limited set a drum loop will provide.  
 
Real drummer plays a groove and that grove is captured and played back by actual recorded drum samples, that is MIDI drumming software.   
 
Your OP read like getting into semantics right from the start.  I'm stating the obvious, because honestly it sounds like you need it on this subject.  With all due respect, assuming your OP wasn't just trolling.  

JustGotPaid
There's one in every crowd.

Have you tried using the drum programs to just copy and paste the provided grooves in the same way as a drum loop would offer?  
 
Your OP seems to imply that you equate these programs with programming and working with midi, yet you don't have to do any of that with them.  
 
I've offered plenty of insight that is not at the level of semantics.  
 
If your friend who uses Sonar also has Plat, sharing file with MIDI drums takes up a lot less room than a WAV file does.  I'd say tempo changing of any groove is a pretty major advantage over Drum Loops.  Adding grooves to the project is just as simple.  
 
The only real workflow advantage I'd see with drum loops is it isn't using your processor as much given that it isn't having to use a VSTi, assuming you are taking about before you freeze or print the track.  
 
Drum Loops are fine for many things, but yes, quite a few advantages to MIDI drums even if you don't want to edit any of them.