Agentcalm
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Drum kit
Hi folks. Did a quick search on drum kits but didnt find anything. Here's my problem.
I use a midi keyboard to trigger Session drummer 3 and it works fine.
I wanted to replace the keyboard with an external electronic drum so that i could hit the pads like a real drummer and have it trigger SD3 just like my keyboard does. Alas...not a sound.
The drum kit is a DIY kit which i bought. The company provides you with an Arduino brain and the piezo sensors.
You have to make the actual pads yourself. So I've done all that and it is ready to go.
According to the company, the arduino is already programmed. My audio device by the way is an M Audio.
Sonar has no problem seeing this and like i say...works fine when using my keyboard.
Now before you tell me to get in contact with the company I bought this from... I have just sent a mail to them. Naturally it will be next week before i hear anything back.
But in the meantime... have any of you guys tried what I am trying here. Replacing your trigger keyboard with an actual set of electronic drum pads? I have no idea about midi mapping or drum mapping so I'm hoping I dont have to go there. When I open SD3 its input is set to OMNI and that works fine with the keyboard.
Thanks guys.
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Zargg
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Hi. How are your pads connected to your pc? MIDI? USB?
Can you see it / them in Preferences (P), MIDI, Devices?
All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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stickman393
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Absolutely. Works great. Unfortunately, my electronic drum pads came pre-assembled and with a MIDI out port.
In your case, I would treat this as a different problem: You have a midi controller, and you have SONAR.
1) Is sonar receiving any data from the controller?
2) No? Is it a midi interface problem? Check by replacing the controller with a known good controller (i.e. keyboard).
Is the problem still there? OK, it could be a problem with the midi interface.
Are you recording MIDI events in SONAR? OK, then it is a problem with the MIDI out on your drum kit controller.
etc.
At this point, you may need to simplify the kit to just one pad, and check the voltage/signals etc from each part of the chain until you find the problem.
I hope that helps...
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Agentcalm
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Hi lads
The "new drum kit" has a midi port on its circuit board. I am using the same midi cable as i use with my trigger keyboard. Its connecting to the midi in of my M Audio. This setup works fine when using the keyboard. The pads themselves dont show up in preferences as its the M Audio that appears there.
I downloaded a test program for checking midi called MIDI-OX site. When i open this program and hit the drum pads it makes a "ding" sound. So it looks like the midi port on my DIY kit is sending a signal. It seems like it might be an "input" setting in sonar needs to be changed.
My trigger keyboard works once SD3 input is set to omni. I have it on this settings with the pads but no joy. I'm thinking i might have been better off buying an actual electronic drum kit.
As im not a drummer i didnt want to spend that kind of money.
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abacab
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Agentcalm
I downloaded a test program for checking midi called MIDI-OX site. When i open this program and hit the drum pads it makes a "ding" sound. So it looks like the midi port on my DIY kit is sending a signal. It seems like it might be an "input" setting in sonar needs to be changed.
I think you are on the right track with MIDI-OX. Open up the MIDI port activity and monitor panes, and then hit your controller. This will show the channel used and details about the MIDI event being sent. You should see note on and note off on your chosen channel. Make sure that channel is the one Session Drummer is set up to receive on and that the note number is in range within the expected drum map range of your SD kit. Your new controller may be sending note data that is off by an octave or something and you may need to transpose it in the Sonar MIDI channel inspector. 
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Agentcalm
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Thanks AB. I did see a screen like your screenshot but had no idea what the hell i was looking at.
I'll give this info to the company and hopefully they can send me instructions how i can edit or modify the pads program.
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stickman393
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Agent Calm, I think you are very close to a solution. I would try setting up a track in SONAR, to record on OMNI, then bash away at the drum kit and then use Event Window to look at the messages being sent by the kit.
I know this is perhaps the same process as you have achieved with MIDI-OX but maybe SONAR's tools will make it a bit more comprehensible?
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abacab
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Agentcalm
Thanks AB. I did see a screen like your screenshot but had no idea what the hell i was looking at.
I'll give this info to the company and hopefully they can send me instructions how i can edit or modify the pads program.
The data in the screenshot is fairly straightforward, but a basic understanding of MIDI events is required. Even if the company can send you instructions, you will still need to understand the MIDI events being generated to modify your pads and/or match it up with your Sonar and SD setup. You don't need to understand every detail, but the MIDI channel used, the MIDI note, and the Event are the key here. The reason you have no sound is that the source and the destination are not matching up. MIDI-OX is a great tool to debug what your controller is sending out. Just need to make sure you are sending what Sonar is looking for.
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abacab
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Agentcalm
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thanks for the link AB.. I'll go check it.
I never thought of Event Window Stickman. Great idea. I'll see if any events are even being triggered.
if i called it a day on this DIY project and decided to buy drum pads or a drum machine in a store.
(a Millenium MD-90 for example)... would i still end up with the same configuring nightmare?
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57Gregy
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"if i called it a day on this DIY project and decided to buy drum pads or a drum machine in a store.
(a Millenium MD-90 for example)... would i still end up with the same configuring nightmare?"
I am also not a drummer and bought a Yamaha DD-65. Works great.
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Agentcalm
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Dd65.... I'll keep that in mind. just in case. I hope I get this working though. The electronic parts and shipping probably cost me about 70 bucks.
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Agentcalm
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Hi Stickman. just tried the event list trick. I created a standard midi track in Sonar. Didnt use Session drummer. Hit record and started hitting the pads with my hand.
Looks like events got recorded.
Im seeing 7 events.
Under Ch I see the number 1
Under Kind I'm seeing the word Note
Under data Im seeing what looks like D flat 5 twice, D5 once and F5 four times.
Should i take form this that the midi port from my DIY pads is sending data. Perhaps the pads do just need some kind of configuration file loaded to the "brain".
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Agentcalm
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Just another update guys. I might be making progress but i will the help of the company.
So I've created a plain empty midi track and hit record. Event viewer shows data.
I then sent that midi track to Dropzone , SD 1 and SD3 but no sounds.
But.... i then sent it to Cakewalk Soundcenter and i get sounds depending on what synth i pick.
Well at least it's some progress. If its ok with you guys I'd like to let y'all know how i get on when these guys get back to me.
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stickman393
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Agentcalm
Should i take form this that the midi port from my DIY pads is sending data. Perhaps the pads do just need some kind of configuration file loaded to the "brain".
Yes. Probably best to take each pad hit as a separate exercise to make sure you know what events are being sent by each pad. So, your drum "brain" is sending on Channel 1, with the notes Db5, D5 and F5 ? It is critical that each pad send one note number. If you're getting multiple notes from each pad, that seems really odd to me. The most important thing is that sounds would be differentiated by note number, so as long as each pad was sending a distinct cluster of note numbers, you would work with that. Then you need a Drum Map. This is how Sonar would translate your drum brain from the notes it is sending, to the notes expected by your virtual drum instrument. I use drum maps for my controller, to map pads to the sounds in Addictive Drums. It's a bit confusing at first, but I couldn't live without drum maps.
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abacab
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Sounds like your drum "brain" is sending notes out in a higher octave than your soft synth drums are mapped to. Open up an existing MIDI clip that plays well with SD3 in Sonar. Take a close look in Piano Roll View at the piano keyboard on the left. To see the piano note numbers, just drag the clip onto a new MIDI track and observe the note range where the hits normally trigger the virtual drums. You can look at the SD kit in Piano Roll, but you are likely to see the SD drum map, rather than note numbers. When I play SD3 from my MIDI keyboard it seems that most of the kit pieces fall between C2 and C5, with a few FX above that range. So you probably need to drop what the triggers are sending by about three octaves. The kit should start at C2 with the kick, with the rest of the kit following. The air gets kind of thin above C5! 
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Agentcalm
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Hey fellers. How goes it.
Sorry Sticks .. i probably didn't explain that very well. I dont think the pads are sending several signals. I was hitting them randomly with my hands like playing bongos. They are most likely only sending one note each. Appreciate the link to drum maps you added there. Looks like Im in for a long road here. But I'll read up on these and try the hang of them.
Hi Abs. Im looking at an SD1 track here and I see what you mean about PRV. I can see those C1, D1 notes etc as they increase in number the further up the piano you go.
So it looks like i need to get the "brain" programmed to use notes from say the C2 range to maybe C4? Thanks guys for hangin there with me on this. I know its a bit of a pain. Appreciate it guys.
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abacab
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Agentcalm
Hey fellers. How goes it.
Sorry Sticks .. i probably didn't explain that very well. I dont think the pads are sending several signals. I was hitting them randomly with my hands like playing bongos. They are most likely only sending one note each. Appreciate the link to drum maps you added there. Looks like Im in for a long road here. But I'll read up on these and try the hang of them.
Hi Abs. Im looking at an SD1 track here and I see what you mean about PRV. I can see those C1, D1 notes etc as they increase in number the further up the piano you go.
So it looks like i need to get the "brain" programmed to use notes from say the C2 range to maybe C4? Thanks guys for hangin there with me on this. I know its a bit of a pain. Appreciate it guys.
In the meantime you can test this theory by opening up the track inspector to the MIDI tab and transposing down -36 semitones (-3 octaves). So select your instrument track, click on the track inspector, and select the MIDI tab at the bottom. Look for the 4th item up from the bottom, labeled "Key+". You can drag the value with your mouse (-left +right) in semitones. That will transpose any incoming MIDI notes by that amount for that track on the fly. No reprogramming the drum module yet. Just do this now to determine how far off the mark it is, then you can dial it in later. And it should be playable for now as well. Save the project and it will keep your transposition in place for future sessions! If you create any new projects you will need to repeat this process.
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abacab
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This is the MIDI track inspector, with the transpose control circled below ... 
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abacab
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One more thought to add is the previously mentioned drum maps. It would be helpful if you can determine what drum map is being used for MIDI data sent from your drum controller. The company that made it can probably help you there.
If it is sending General MIDI (GM) drums, you are in luck, because you can set the drum map in Sonar to the GM drum map.
If you look at the graphic in my last post, the left hand column has two drop down selectors near the bottom. The lower one selects the drum output. Just click on that and select "New Drum Map", and scroll down until you see the GM maps. There are several provided, so assuming you have sorted out the general pitch issues, this may get you headed in the general direction of triggering the correct samples from your kit.
If the GM thing doesn't work, hopefully the company used a standard of some sort, else you may need to create a custom drum map to get the notes triggering the correct samples.
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Agentcalm
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Hi Ab....guys
Sorry for the delay but I am having a nightmare with this crowd. They are not replying to emails and not really helping at all. I have found some new info however. The brain (circuit board) is made by Arduino and i found on their web site that you need to download something called an IDE in order to upload programs to the brain. So i got this downloaded.
Now... I have now been able to open the brains current settings using this app.
The 6 pads are currently set to 60..61...62..63....64...65 It then says in brackets mIDI notes from 0 to 127. Mid C = 60 So i guess this is some kind of progress. If I could now find what to change these to I can upload it to my new drum kit.
Does anyone know which is middle C when looking at PRV?
I looked in SD3 and my kick drum is C3 snare is D3 toms are D4 B3 and F3
I can pick say a crash cymbal which is A4 That's 6 items. Are these midi notes or just the position of them in PRV? I opened midi event viewer to try get more info but it doesnt give anything extra. I feel Im sort making some kind of progress here.
Thanks for the screenshots by the way. My screen is different but i did find that Key+ function you mentioned.
thanks guys In future I'll just but the dang thing in a store.
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abacab
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Agentcalm
Hi Ab....guys
Sorry for the delay but I am having a nightmare with this crowd. They are not replying to emails and not really helping at all. I have found some new info however. The brain (circuit board) is made by Arduino and i found on their web site that you need to download something called an IDE in order to upload programs to the brain. So i got this downloaded.
Now... I have now been able to open the brains current settings using this app.
The 6 pads are currently set to 60..61...62..63....64...65 It then says in brackets mIDI notes from 0 to 127. Mid C = 60 So i guess this is some kind of progress. If I could now find what to change these to I can upload it to my new drum kit.
Does anyone know which is middle C when looking at PRV?
I looked in SD3 and my kick drum is C3 snare is D3 toms are D4 B3 and F3
I can pick say a crash cymbal which is A4 That's 6 items. Are these midi notes or just the position of them in PRV? I opened midi event viewer to try get more info but it doesnt give anything extra. I feel Im sort making some kind of progress here.
Thanks for the screenshots by the way. My screen is different but i did find that Key+ function you mentioned.
thanks guys In future I'll just but the dang thing in a store.
MIDI Note Numbers for Different Octaveshttp://www.electronics.di...umbers_for_octaves.htm Based on this chart, MIDI note #60 is actually C5. That's probably two octaves too high for SD. It probably should be starting at #36 for C3. To test this theory, try transposing down in the Sonar channel inspector by two octaves, until you hit the sound you want, for example the C3 kick. Once confirmed, you can calibrate your brain to send the correct numbers.
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Agentcalm
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Thanks Ab. This makes sense. So they have their brain programmed from key 60 upwards.
As my kick drum in SD is C3 which is key 36 , I could change their number 60 to my kick 36. This should give me a kick drum (once I save the program and upload it to the brain). Its almost 9pm here so i dont want to annoy the neighbors. I'll give this a try tomorrow guys.
If i get the kick sound it means Im on track. thanks again Ab :)
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scook
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Re: Drum kit
2017/05/11 19:56:13
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/05/12 11:48:13
Could also do the translation in a drum map and leave the brain at its default settings.
Edit: I just noticed maps were mentioned earlier. Personally, I prefer to leave hardware at default settings as much as possible.
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abacab
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Here is another chart, but the octaves are shifted down from the other chart. The octave numbers are really just relative and can vary based on the first octave referenced by a given system, which is variable. The note number is what you are really after, as I always get a kick sound from SD with note #36. MIDI Note Numbers for Different Octaveshttps://www.midikits.net/midi_analyser/midi_note_numbers_for_octaves.htm Looks like you now have several possible solutions to your problem. Good luck and have fun!
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abacab
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scook
Could also do the translation in a drum map and leave the brain at its default settings.
Edit: I just noticed maps were mentioned earlier. Personally, I prefer to leave hardware at default settings as much as possible.
True, but the fastest way to test this is to transpose with the channel inspector, before trying to build a permanent fix.
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scook
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In that case, I would probably use the Transpose MFX. It is easier to read.
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Agentcalm
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Ive never used drum maps to be honest and dont know what they do. Someone sent me a link earlier about these and I'll definitely read up on those. But for now I'll try use one system to configure this thing and then I'll move on to learning drums maps later.
Ah all the fun of the fare guys.
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tlw
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Drum maps are very, very useful things.
What they do is look at an incoming MIDI note and turn it into another. So if, for example, the MIDI controller sends note 60 on channel 1 to MIDI port 2 a drum map can be used to convert that into e.g. note 36 on channel 10, MIDI port 3. Software synths/sampler inputs are MIDI ports in the same way hardware MIDI kit is.
The best way to find how they work is to create one yourself. The first one or two are likely to take a bit of time, bit once understood they are pretty straightforward and can be useful any time you need to reassign MIDI notes "on the fly". An example of why this is useful outside just drums is that what some systems/synths call C1 others call C0 which means their notes disagree by an octave unless corrected in either direction so they end up the same. Roland and Yamaha back when MIDI was new can be blamed for the two different octave numbering systems if I remember correctly. Similarly, some companies number MIDI notes and continuous controller data 0-127 and others 1-128.
Trying to get a MIDI controller to work and route its output to where you want it really does mean getting your head around some MIDI basics though - note numbers and messages, channels and ports in particular. Otherwise you're mostly guessing and hoping to hit on something that works by chance.
And you may find the same sort of problem with a commercially built MIDI kit or controller, but at least they are usually fairly well documented.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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Agentcalm
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thanks TL Definitely something worth looking at. As you say..I should read up on MIDI first to get a handle on the terms etc. To be honest, I never used it at all and only use SD3 or the built in synths of Sonar. This is first time I've tried to use some external device and hence the headache. But hopefully I'm on the right road now.
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