Drum mic'ing question

I'm about to take my first foray into the world of recording live drums. I've been doing a bit of research and think I've got most of what I'm going to be doing squared away but have a question about the overheads or more specifically recording them that I can't seem to find an answer to. 
 
Are they better on a single stereo track or two monos and if one is better than the other why?
 
If it makes a difference I plan to have separate mics on the ride and crash as well so they won't be the only source for cymbals.
 
Thanks in advance for any advice...

Hi Jeff - thanks for the reply.
 
I was going to close mic the hi-hat anyway as well as Kick, Snare top & bottom, and each tom.
 
TBH I'd always thought/assumed that there was no need to close mic the ride and cymbals but I watched a groove3 video on drum production/engineering with Krish Sharma. He close mic'd them both explaining the reason for the ride was so when the drummer switched patterns away from the hi-hat you'd have a similar level on the ride. I could see the logic in that. I can't recall him giving a reason for the crash though, perhaps he just liked using mics he had 4 or 5 on the rooom alone.
 
In fairness though he did then do a section on 'real world' project studio techniques, which is where I am, but I'm going for somewhere in between his two methods. In that IIRC he close mic'd kick and then a shared mic on the snare and hi-hat, close mic'd the toms and a single overhead biased toward the ride side of the kit. 
 
Inputs aren't a problem I can run up to 24 if needed and it's just a 3-piece drums, bass, guitar, and vocals so there shouldn't be any shortage there. My plan as far as recording the drums is concerned is to capture them all "as is" with no processing at all but I do have an outboard compressor, and can also record the EQ from my desk if need be. Having said that I can also re-process both via the desk as well after the event. I'm working on the theory that if I process on the way in I can't change it but I can always add it and re-record it later via the send/return facility of my interface's routing abilities.
 
That sound okay?
 
Thanks, Karl.
 
 
 
 

^^^ +1

Also, unless your doing jazzy type stuff....You're probably gonna wind up muting your hat track anyway. You find you get plenty in the OH's.

Remember to raise your crashes (height-wise) to minimize the bleed into the toms.
Trial and error with respect to OH position/distance is absolutely necessary.
Cardiod tom mics should point in the same direction (as a group) to reduce phase trouble.

Good Luck! Learning to get good drum sounds is very rewarding.

"Cardiod tom mics should point in the same direction (as a group) to reduce phase trouble."

The thing about cardioid mics is that only the best of breed have smooth and realistic off axis frequency response. The cheap ones butcher the side address. That's not a big deal when your lip is on the mic... but it is noticable when you are using one as an overhead and there is a lot of off axis bleed. You may learn that one mic will be more enjoyable than some other.

Regardless of whether you use Cardiod, omnis, 8's etc... the primary factor effecting phase coherency on a "stereo" track is distance from the mics to the primary instruments.

The tried and true string method remains very useful.

For example; I like to make sure my overheads are both equidistant from both the snare AND the kick so that I get a good clean pulse from each.


best regards,
mike

For simplicity, you might want to check out the "recorderman" 2 mic technique. Google "recorderman" and you will get a wealth of information.

There are some other methods of recording drums that use fewer mikes and are good at creating a composite drum sound. The recorderman technique is one such approach and it brings into line what Mike was talking about also. I think this tutorial has been around for a while now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

Also the Glyn Johns method.

http://www.youtube.com/re...0l0l398l1262l2-2.2l4l0

Its great to simplify drum recording down to even two microphones. I like micing kick and snare even along with the recorderman technique in case you just need to treat either of those with separate effects etc. If you get a good phase coherent stereo recording it usually responds well to EQ and you can build a solid drum sound from there.

Especially if the mikes are sitting over say a Sonor drum kit that has been well tuned. You might think you need to track drums over many tracks etc for later processing but after doing many mixes myself I find the well made stereo drum recording actually sits really well in a mix and it saves you time because it is all there to start with. Having the kick and snare captured separately gives you that slight edge in control in bringing up those sounds if you need to later in a busy mix to add a little definition to those sounds.

Also you can run that stereo track over to a great sounding convolution reverb with a lovely tight drum room type space added on for some extra sp.ice. Having kick and snare on their own also allows you to not put those things into the tight reverb. You can pre EQ the drum sound also going into the drum reverb ie take out kick and limit the highs a bit.

But it does come down to the drummer. They have to setup a lovely bouncy groove that tries to glue all the other rhythm elements together. When drummers are not experienced they labour the groove down and the drums can sound heavy and uneven.  A great drummer makes the drum groove sound light and bouncy. Getting the right sound out of all the surfaces a drummer has on hand also requires skill. Toms need hitting harder sometimes but cymbals don't need to be hit very hard at all in order to make a sound. It is interesting changing from using a lot of power in your hand one minute to gently stroking something in the next beat or even subdivision. The kick and snare when hit the wrong way produce a horrible thin sound with little body. The right way makes them sound deeper and fatter with a nicer tone. A good drummer can balance all the elements of a drum kit and be very consistent with those strokes. That is when the recorderman technique works the best. The lower end of drum kit's dynamics is rarely explored with many drummers. It is better to record at a lower volume sometimes and make it sound bigger later in the mix.

What I usually do: kick (inside if there is a hole - outside if not), snare top and bottom, all toms (tops only), ride, hi hat and a pair of overheads. A typical 5-piece kit ends up being 10 channels. Overheads are always individual mono tracks. I never record to stereo except for keyboards and sometimes not even them. Overheads might pose a problem sometimes so I might close mic crashes depending on the drummer and the set. I am thinking more and more of abandoning the overheads and just close-miking cymbals all the time. The problem is the drummer and how hard they hit the cymbals. It can be a real problem getting good crashes in the mix sometimes. Pro's almost always have a hole in the kick. Amateurs almost always do not. I have a spare 22" front head here with hole in case we need to get the mic in close to the beater. Thank god for Drumagog.

last album i engineered and produced for Kettlefish, we did eric's drums at his house.
had the whole band play via headphones and direct line ins, no amps, with the singer singing remotely.

this was a 'guerilla-style' recording sessions, we knocked out 14 songs in one day!!
LOL

i don't recommend those types of sessions for the weak of heart.



kit:


eric at kit:
 


some notes i took on that session:
DRUMS:
i can say that, in general, after the first session, and getting drum tracks, i spent quite a bit of time 'cleaning up' the drum tracks for bleed thru-
it made a HUGE improvement in the sound, getting rid of ambient bleed off the tracks.


all drums, get routed to a DRUM BUSS.
the two overheads, got routed to their very own OVERHEAD BUSS, as well, so i could compress it seperately of the rest of the kit.




since we didn't have any gates available when capturing the raw tracks, we relied on close micing, and low signals, to reduce the bleed thru...


i used the noise removal processing from the track menu in sonar, to get rid of a lot of the obvious bleed-thru between hits on the snare, kick, and toms, but left the overheads and hi hats alone.
i did spot removal on those tracks where it was appropriate, but it becomes obvious when you cut audio out of the overheads and hi hats, because you hear the drop out of the noise floor, it's just weird sounding.


in noisy sections, i could pull certain things out, and you wouldn't notice, i did that on a situation by situation decision.


on mixdown, i applied gating, compression, eq, sometimes reverb on the snare, sometimes dry, sometimes reverb on the overheads, and almost always compression on the overheads.


panning was typically closer to center with the left to right toms and overheads, than hard left and right, tho on a couple of songs, i spread it out quite a bit.

If the drummer is good and has lots of control, less can often work work for "natural" type of drumming.  And I find mixing is often as pointed out above - overheads mostly w/ some fronting by individual mics.

here at home I've had great success w/ three mics - two overheads measured from the middle of the space between the kick and snare, and a floor pzm (good Crown, not a sound grabber to put on a conference desk), equidistant, on a wood floor.  The overheads were gentley compressed.  Mix in the PZM to taste - clean but with lots of kick.  It sounds natural, full and good.

This method w/ drummers who have less control over volume and esp. crash is more problematical - it don't lie.  It is a little like slipperman and Glys, but my sdc are dark so the pzm brings out the bright and the kick.  I don't have enough mics, cables, stands etc.
for individual drums, so I work w/ what I've got.  If the band is serious and must have indidual drums, they can rent a real studio drum room and we can mix here.  it is also amazing how much time you can save if you (and every member of the band) aren't saying "turn up the snare, etc."
@

we spent an entire day doing nothing but setting up drum mics and getting sounds and levels.
none of the other musicians were around...

then the evening before tracking, we brought in all the guitar rigs and keys, bass...
and had them setup their tones, and i set levels in the recorder and monitor levels
(we tracked on an Alesis 24 track hard disc recorder)

I have something similar planned. I'm going to have a dummy run with the drummer who is going to do some live drumming for some of my stuff. That should give me a chance to iron out any problems that I encounter as well a load of time to experiment with mic positions etc.

Then come band recording time we'll set up his stuff the day before. The rest, guitar and bass amp isolation I've already done before so I know that works. Vocals proper will be done after the event.

Luckily I live in the middle of nowhere so neighbours aren't a problem and I have a very understanding wife..

Cool, Rimshot, I'll give that a try next time going in.

@