Helpful ReplyDrums and Bass, looking for that special mix

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Leee
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2017/06/06 00:28:11 (permalink)

Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix

Whenever I write/record songs, I always pay special attention to the drums and bass.  I especially love when I can blend them together to where the kick drum and the bass almost sound like one instrument.   Although I've yet to discover a secret formula in mixing, and the sound of each instrument, to get the desired result every time.  It's usually hit or miss for me.
I have dozens of different types of virtual drums and basses, which makes it harder because of all the choices.
But I always go to the PRV to make sure the bass notes are precisely timed with the kick (and snare) drum.

The following video with Jeff Beck and Tal Wilkenfeld gives a perfect example of what I'm striving for.
So I wanted to know if anyone has any special tips or advice on how to get that perfect mixture?  Mixing levels, compression, EQing, etc. etc.?  Thanks!
NOTE: You have to go in about 1:15 into the video before the kick drum comes in.
https://youtu.be/0ej_X2_SggQ

Lee Shapiro
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batsbrew
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 00:33:27 (permalink)
Leee

Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix




 
you and everyone else in the world, brother!!
 
LOL
 
you are not ever going to get close to that sound,
without having a real drummer and bass player,
with comparable killer tones coming off their rigs and kit, 
that's a real real high bar there.
 
tal and vinnie, that's a magic combination.
 
best bet, is to use the highest quality drum samples you can find....
and have brilliant programming...
and use a super high quality bass like the one that tal uses, that level of instrument,
and then try to play in the pocket.
 
if the original tones are correct,
you wont even have to eq it.
 

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TheSteven
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 02:26:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Leee 2017/06/06 03:25:07
There many different techniques including time aligning, side chaining eq and/or compression (ducking), eq techniques, etc.. either alone or in combination.   
There are lots of articles on how to do what you're trying to achieve - just take them with a grain of salt.
Like medical advise a lot is self serving and the recommended recipe may not be suited for your tastes.
 
If someone else can do it, you can do it.  Read,  listen and experiment until you find your formula.

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Leee
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 03:36:11 (permalink)
Thanks TheSteven, I'll do some googling and see what I can find.
In the meantime, I uploaded a quick and simple drums and bass riff.
I'm using Scarbee's Rickenbacker Bass (my go-to bass) and Superior Drums.
No effects or processors were added to the mix, just the straight samples from the plugins.

So while I'm looking for some tutorials, maybe someone can give me an A/B comparison between the Jeff Beck song and this one.  And if anything jumps out at you that you can immediately suggest I do, feel free to offer some suggestions.
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13582210
 
Also another example, this one a complete song (instrumental) where I think I came closest to the drum/bass mixture I've been striving for:  "Once Upon a Town"
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13353251
 
Thanks again for any suggestions!

Lee Shapiro
www.soundclick.com/leeshapiro
 
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TheSteven
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 04:49:47 (permalink)
Hi Leo
 
Without doing an indepth study on the video this is what I'm seeing and hearing:
First of all video and your piece are 2 different styles but ignoring that...
She's finger picking,  a Fender bass and either through technique or eq not a lot of mids.
Kick drum - probably a felt beater, close mic'd, there's padding (dampening like a pillow) in the drum* - no ring, flap or room tone.  Played firmly but not hard - again not a lot in the mid's.
*or they ran it through an envelope follower to remove all ring & sustain.
For most of the song kick pattern is simple, sparse and whenever he hits the kick - she's on it, every note.
Towards 3:40 you can hear some kick with out bass on top and it's not your topical rock kick.
When the kick & bass play together the bass notes get emphasized almost like she switched to using a pick for those notes. 
 
Your kick - little or no dampening so heads are a lot more ringy, some kick in the room sound or vice versa, harder beater or your velocity is set high enough to be clickier.
Bass & kick may be dating but they're not married.  Even if you had the bass & drums sounding the same as the video it wouldn't feel the same, they're a lot more busy and they're not in playing in sync enough. 
 
Anyway here's you 5 minute opinion - YMMV, hope it helps.
 
Best regards,
...Steven

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#5
Leee
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 07:08:07 (permalink)
Thanks Steven, I appreciate your insights.  I also have a bass plugin called MODO Bass, and while it isn't sample based, it does offer dozens of various bass setups, including finger, pick and slap playing.  So I might try one of the finger played basses.
Also, I don't know if you listened to the 2nd song I posted, it's a lot closer in style (blues) than the first one, plus it's rounded out with a full band's worth of instruments, so the overall mix would be more accurate than just playing drums and bass.

Anyway thanks again for your suggestions.  I'll keep plugging away and keep trying to get closer to the sound I'm looking for.

Lee Shapiro
www.soundclick.com/leeshapiro
 
Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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dcumpian
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 12:10:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Leee 2017/06/06 23:10:20
One thing that will make a difference is time-aligning the audio rather than midi. You'll have to bounce to audio (of course), and you'll want the kick in it's own audio track. After that, it really is all about EQ and compression.
 
Dan

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Leee
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 23:10:03 (permalink)
dcumpian
One thing that will make a difference is time-aligning the audio rather than midi. You'll have to bounce to audio (of course), and you'll want the kick in it's own audio track. After that, it really is all about EQ and compression.
 
Dan


Thanks, that's also helpful information.  I'm guessing aligning the audio rather than midi, gives a more accurate and/or natural sounding sync between instruments?

Lee Shapiro
www.soundclick.com/leeshapiro
 
Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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dcumpian
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Re: Drums and Bass, looking for that special mix 2017/06/06 23:18:29 (permalink)
Leee
dcumpian
One thing that will make a difference is time-aligning the audio rather than midi. You'll have to bounce to audio (of course), and you'll want the kick in it's own audio track. After that, it really is all about EQ and compression.
 
Dan


Thanks, that's also helpful information.  I'm guessing aligning the audio rather than midi, gives a more accurate and/or natural sounding sync between instruments?




Absolutely! You see, no two sets of samples are the same as far as where the attack is in the sample, so it is mostly coincidence if samples from different drum sample recording sessions are exactly time-aligned. Not only is each drum different, but the way they were played, recorded, processed, chopped and then gathered into a sample set all add variation.
 
Dan

Mixing is all about control.
 
My music:
http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.    
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