Drums and panning "perspective"

Hi peeps,
 
A quick and simple question...
 
When setting the stereo position of a traditional drum kit, do you prefer to use the drummers or listeners perspective?
 
I must admit that I've always gone for the listeners perspective, but I've just noticed, while experimenting with BFDeco, that there is an option for drummers perspective that is selected by default (at least on the kit that I have just selected).
 
cheers
 
andy

Hi Jeff,
 
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate that 
 

Jeff Evans
I have just mixed a Jazz tune with a trio and the drums are leaning towards one side,  (eg panned from C to L) the piano to the other  (panned C to R)  and the bass in the middle.  That sort of stuff is actually more important in a way than the perspective.  And it has much more effect or is much more noticeable.

Interesting, and I wouldn't have thought of that.
 
I guess that, for much of what I do, a typical "standard" balance across the stereo image would do, but I'll certainly consider what you have said there 
 
Plus, I will never have the luxury of working with a real drummer any more. Battery and BFDeco are my only drumming friends... They do have mic'ing "options" but I've never explored them to be honest, opting to use whatever is set up within the VSTi when I load it. I guess I should look more deeply into that.
 
What I do do with my drum VSTi's though, is I set up an audio track for each percussion element and then route them to a separate drum bus. I have settled on the idea that it's easier to set the panning within the VSTi but I set the levels via the track faders, after I have maxed the levels within the VSTi. I then set the overall drums level in the "song" via the drum bus. I can then also apply EQ to each element as needed, but I digress (onto another much more complicated topic).
 
cheers
 
andy

bitflipper
that it's a trivial distinction most of the time.

Hi Dave,
 
Yeah, I understand that bit... I was just wondering about the option in BFDeco to flip the stereo perspective and I thought I'd ask what the experts think. I'll stick with what I'm doing as far as panning goes.
 
Like you and Jeff say, there are more important considerations in the grand scheme of things 
 
cheers
 
andy

batsbrew
if your phase was correct when micing, say, the overheads,
you will want to maintain that phase relationship in the mix.

 
Hi Rob,
 
I'm not tracking drums here, just using a VSTi I'm afraid 
 
But I'm glad you mentioned that because BFDeco has an overhead mic. I checked what happens when the "perspective" is changed from one setting to the other and it also changes it for the OH mic, so all is good.
 
thanks 

Cheers Beep 
 
I'm currently experimenting with creating a non-electronic piece... At least, the main features will be guitars and drums with perhaps some pads and keys thrown in.
 
I'll be onto you for your opinions on my *ahem* guitar playing as soon as I have something worth posting.............

Just avoid what they often did on early stereo records, with the entire kit panned hard left or right, and you'll be mostly OK.

There's little point in panning the kick or very low toms at all though. Their frequency range is low enough that humans find it diffcult to place them in space in the first place. Getting too pan happy with things like tom fills can end up being tiring to listen to. Used sparsely for effect, fine, drums hopping around the stereo field all the time, not so good.

As for live sound reinforcement, it's still mostly done in mono to ensure everyone can hear everything that's going on. At gigs where the drums aren't amplified any stereo positioning is lost once you're a few feet away because kits aren't spread out very much unless you've two drummers. Room reflections tend to reduce any stereo effect in any case.

As for "listener or drummer" positioning, personally I go with listener. Though I played for many years with a left handed drummer who played a reversed kit, so I suppose to capture him I'd need to reverse the usual listener perspective.....

tlw
As for "listener or drummer" positioning, personally I go with listener. Though I played for many years with a left handed drummer who played a reversed kit, so I suppose to capture him I'd need to reverse the usual listener perspective.....

Exactly... this throws perspective out the window.
 
I tend to put kick and snare down the middle, then I just spread things out until they suit the song. I try to keep things natural (ie: toms moving in order, ride and hats separated, spread out the cymbals, etc...) but the listener/drummer perspective means nothing to me.

Rimshot
 
I agree it doesn't matter how you want it but it is always nice to hear the stereo drums like you were in front of them. 

Totally 

Sorry Jeff. What is WAY more important is how you want to hear it. 

I have since the beginning of time ( or at least my mixing ) mixed from a drummers perspective, mostly as that's kind of how I heard it from playing on stage (agreeing real stereo was lost).
 
However, now that I am dabbling in live video and multi track recording I clearly want things panned as seen in the video or it's just wrong. How far? Well too far is weird unless the drummer is ape like with very long arms. :)

I'm sitting here listening through headphones to "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" from The White Album.

The stereo image is interesting.

Clapton's guitar, a bit of piano/organ hard left.

Vocals down the middle, later some percussion and other padding bits as well.

Hard panned to the right there is the grunty bass and Ringo's sparse but absolutely right for the song drums.

Which places all the weight and low frequencies on the right. Not an approach that's considered "wise" today.

Dropping the track to mono actually sounds better (to me) because it focuses everything into a more coherent whole. Then again, I'm not a world-famous songwriter/musician with a career history and reputation that means I can tell a major label how I want things to sound and be absolutely certain they'll release and publicise it. :-)

I'm with the others. Though it doesn't really matter, I personally prefer listener perspective when mixing....drummer perspective when actually tracking for myself or any drummer that comes through my doors.
 
When I mix a song in drummer perspective, it not only sounds wrong to me, it now literally bothers me! LOL!! That said, it took me a year to get used to listener perspective. But now I won't have it any other way unless someone asks for drummer perspective. Again though....there are no rules.....do what you feel sounds best. :)
 
Just whatever you do, don't go cymbal and tom "pan crazy" where cymbals and toms pan completely hard left/hard right. Realistically listening to that, it sounds bad in my opinion and makes your drum kit sound separated and VERY disconnected.
 
Toms and cymbals are accent instruments. They don't really need "oh my God" pans to jump out at you. I'm not saying don't pan them...what I'm saying is, keep them within the drum kit. In real life pans....you wouldn't hear a cymbal or a tom completely to the left or right of you to where it can step on top of a hard panned backing vocal, rhythm guitar track or even a keyboard line. It's more stuff you have to worry about as far as mixing and masking with other instruments goes.
 
Granted, the frequencies used by drums are different than the instruments you will have hard panned....but you can still have issues every time a drum walks on top of another instrument IF you're not careful....especially if you're a novice. You just don't need the extra headaches. We have 200 pan possibilities. We can create beautiful music that all has a place in the field without having any of it walk on top of something else. In a nutshell, just be careful or you can make yourself work so much harder to clean stuff like this up. :)
 
-Danny

Ringo led with his left doing fills but his kit was setup normal like a right-handed drummer.