paulo
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Dual Boot OS - RESOLVED
This is a question that I have also posted in the CH, mainly due to the fact that is generally busier. I also did a topic search here and elswhere which led me to much info on how to do set up etc, but not too much in terms of how well it works, which is what I am really looking for. I do not intend to do the setting up myself. If anyone here can help it would be much appreciated............ Anybody using dual boot systems here ? I was planning on keeping my trusty old XP 32 bit system and buying a new W7 64bit to run alongside it as I have VST's that I use all the time that are 32bit only that I have been told "may or may not work" in 64bit and some other stuff that I use all the time that I presume needs XP as they will not even install/work on my Vista 32 laptop . I've made the assumption here that there some kind of readily available /reasonably priced gadget to enable me to switch the monitors between systems without unplugging them each time. However, as it now seems like my DAW needs reasonably major surgery, I have to decide whether to stick to plan A (ie just rebuild it as XP32 and proceed with plan A) or go a stage further and build a W7 64 system with a dual boot so I can still have XP32 within that. Some may say now is the time to embrace 64bit and ditch the old stuff that can't be made to work, but that isn't gonna happen, so does anyone have any experience of dual boot systems ? What are the pitfalls etc... ? How does it actually work when you switch on ? (yes I am that much of an ignoramus !) Does it ask which OS you want or does it default to one and then you have to re-boot onto the other ? A little research has told me that it is better to have seperate HD's for each OS, which would be fine, but again, how does that work when you power up? I'm also assuming here that it is possibe to open a cwp created in 64bt system on the 32 bit, do my 32 bit stuff, bounce it to audio, save and then still be good to go in 64bit. (the files are all stored on an extrnal HD which could be plugged in to either system as req'd). I'm also assuming that 64bit system will be able to open existing 32 bit projects ? All this is with 8.53PE BTW, but maybe X2 as an when. Part of me is already saying...don't go there, fix the other one up then buy the new 64bit system as you planned and just have both, but I'm a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it type" so I probably would say that. Trouble is that it is broke, so I have to decide how to fix it......
EDIT: Thanks again to those who responded.
post edited by paulo - 2012/08/09 16:12:39
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jcschild
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 12:22:33
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there is absolutely no reason for dual boot.
no reason for XP
Win 7 64 wil run both 64 and 32 bit programs that simple..
using a bit bridge program like VS Pro or Bbridge solves and issues.
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 12:32:58
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jcschild
there is absolutely no reason for dual boot.
no reason for XP
Win 7 64 wil run both 64 and 32 bit programs that simple..
using a bit bridge program like VS Pro or Bbridge solves and issues.
Thanks for replying, but unfortunately it isn't that simple at all. As I said, I have software that I use all the time that will not install/work on my Vista 32 laptop, yet is fine in XP, so it seems that XP is a requirement. Will that install/work on W7 ? I have no way of knowing, but I am inclined to doubt it. I have read that there is an XP mode in W7 - is that what this is for, or is it just an appearance thing ?
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jcschild
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 13:19:00
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time to get rid of the old.. the hassle of going back and forth is not owrth keeping the older software.
no xp mode will not work for that at least not acceptable enough for audio use, i can barely get an old check printing software to work right.
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 14:00:05
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I run a dual boot setup and it works with no issues. It's been so long since I set it up that I can't even remember how I did it, but I'm pretty sure I just installed XP first and then set-up Windows 7 after. It only needed doing once. I don't use it for any DAW stuff anymore but I have a couple of audio apps that I keep maintained because I've been involved in beta-testing a few things. I use it for other non-Audio legacy content-creation stuff that doesn't work too well on W7. For DAW work though I'm 100% W7 now. I've never had trouble running a dual boot but as always YMMV, but other than for my few specialist requirements I don't think I'd bother with it anymore.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/08/08 14:05:09
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 14:17:39
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jcschild
time to get rid of the old.. the hassle of going back and forth is not owrth keeping the older software.
no xp mode will not work for that at least not acceptable enough for audio use, i can barely get an old check printing software to work right.
Thanks again, but as I said in the OP that's not going to happen. I wouldn't be going back and forth all the time - as you say SONAR 32 and 64 will both work on 64bit OS, so DAW wise there would be no need. The fact remains that for non-SONAR stuff I need XP, so on those occasions when I am doing other stuff, I would simply boot up XP for that. What I am trying to establish here is the pros and cons of dual boot v seperate PC's. Thanks for the info re XP mode - I thought that would be the case.
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 14:24:48
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Jonbouy
I run a dual boot setup and it works with no issues.
It's been so long since I set it up that I can't even remember how I did it, but I'm pretty sure I just installed XP first and then set-up Windows 7 after. It only needed doing once.
I don't use it for any DAW stuff anymore but I have a couple of audio apps that I keep maintained because I've been involved in beta-testing a few things. I use it for other non-Audio legacy content-creation stuff that doesn't work too well on W7. For DAW work though I'm 100% W7 now.
I've never had trouble running a dual boot but as always YMMV, but other than for my few specialist requirements I don't think I'd bother with it anymore.
Thanks JB - I was just about to PM you as Bapu said you were the man to ask. Do you have both OS on the same HD or on separate ones ?
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 14:30:59
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I have a 0.5 Gb drive with both OS's on.
The point being is that only one partition is in use at any one time so there's no performance hit from just using a single drive.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 14:38:08
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This might help simplify the Boot creation process too. http://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/ Although there's plenty of info out there as you say on how to get it working.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 14:59:11
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Jonbouy
I have a 0.5 Gb drive with both OS's on.
The point being is that only one partition is in use at any one time so there's no performance hit from just using a single drive.
According to what I've just been reading, there does seem to be some potential issues re restore points though (one overwriting the other) ? Would this still be the case with seperate drives ?
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 15:01:51
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Jonbouy
This might help simplify the Boot creation process too.
http://neosmart.net/EasyBCD/
Although there's plenty of info out there as you say on how to get it working.
Thanks for the link. I'm not planning to do the set-up myself - I'm a bit out of my comfort zone here as you can probably tell by the dumb questions !
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/08 19:15:07
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paulo
Jonbouy
I have a 0.5 Gb drive with both OS's on.
The point being is that only one partition is in use at any one time so there's no performance hit from just using a single drive.
According to what I've just been reading, there does seem to be some potential issues re restore points though (one overwriting the other) ? Would this still be the case with seperate drives ?
If you use system restore it wouldn't matter if you use separate drives or partitions the result would be the same. I don't use system restore anyway as it is a malware breeding ground and incurs some system overhead when it's running in the background. I just image my OS partitions when needed and can completely restore from an image in a matter of minutes.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/08/08 19:20:13
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 03:17:09
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Jonbouy
paulo
Jonbouy
I have a 0.5 Gb drive with both OS's on.
The point being is that only one partition is in use at any one time so there's no performance hit from just using a single drive.
According to what I've just been reading, there does seem to be some potential issues re restore points though (one overwriting the other) ? Would this still be the case with seperate drives ?
If you use system restore it wouldn't matter if you use separate drives or partitions the result would be the same.
I don't use system restore anyway as it is a malware breeding ground and incurs some system overhead when it's running in the background.
I just image my OS partitions when needed and can completely restore from an image in a matter of minutes.
OK, I thought System restore only affected the OS, so I don't really understand how it would overwrite a different OS on a different drive, but I'm sure you're right - I really have no idea how these things work. As for the malware breeding ground, my daw PC is and never has been hooked up to the www, so not and issue in that case I assume ? I'm just discovering that the part of my dual pc plan A that involved switching my monitors between the two is not quite as straightforward/inexpensive as I'd assumed - this week just gets better and better !
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slartabartfast
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 04:31:11
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OK, I thought System restore only affected the OS, so I don't really understand how it would overwrite a different OS on a different drive,
Apparently this is a housekeeping/safety measure that is programmed in to XP to make it search the drives/partitions that are mounted (made accessible) to XP on booting, and delete volume shadow copies (restore points, previous file versions, and some backups etc.) that are defective. XP sees shadow copies created by newer versions of Windows as being defective, since the format they are saved in by later versions is unknown to XP. There is a workaround that basically denies XP the right to mount some partitions/drives that may contain shadow copy data that you want to preserve. Since those drives and partitions are not available to XP it will not destroy the restore points there, but you will not be able to access those partitions from XP for any other reason either. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/926185 http://www.vistax64.com/tutorials/127417-system-restore-points-stop-xp-dual-boot-delete.html If you are only using shadow copies (restore points) located on the boot partition of Windows 7, you can just make that partition marked as offline on XP boot. Another perhaps simpler but more expensive way to achieve a "dual boot" would be to load each OS on a separate drive and swap them using a removable drive rack. In that case the other OS is physically unavailable for mischief when booting. If you are using shadow copies to keep backups on other partitions, they need to be protected as well.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2012/08/09 04:32:45
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 06:45:43
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IMO Windows System Restore sucks whether you use a dual boot or not. It's a crap-shoot as to whether it fixes what needs fixing when you need call on it and it runs in the background writing to disk when you don't necessarily want it too. Get yourself an imaging solution such as Acronis, Active DiskImage, et al and do all your imaging from an optical boot disk, you don't need any of that garbage installed on the OS. A full image restore will take you back to EXACTLY where you were before things went wrong and takes less than 10 minutes on an average OS drive. The dual boot has been bullet-proof for me since Vista came out which is when I first set it up, it doesn't need maintenance or seperate drives and it is simple to set up if you follow the instructions out there. The first Google hit I got on the subject covers setting it up simply and highlights any caveats (which for me are none). http://www.sevenforums.co...tion-windows-7-xp.html
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/08/09 06:56:29
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Goddard
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 08:33:02
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I'm running basically the same dual boot setup as Jonbuoy, with XP (64 in my case) and Win7 x64 installed on separate boot partitions on a single drive, and it works fine. XP should be installed first, and then when you install Win7 just select the other empty partition (or create it in unpartitioned free space on the drive) and Win7 will create a boot menu so you can select which OS to boot when you start up the PC. One thing to note: Win7 supports "AHCI" mode of SATA, but XP doesn't. The SATA controllers on most recent motherboards can be configured in BIOS setup as IDE (legacy) mode, SATA (enhanced) mode, AHCI (advanced SATA features) mode and SATA RAID (Windows software RAID) mode. Except for IDE mode, installing Windows using these SATA modes requires first setting the desired SATA mode in the BIOS setup and then, when installing Windows, hitting F6 and then installing the appropriate SATA driver from a floppy disk or USB flashdrive because without the driver XP won't see the SATA drive. For an XP/Win7 dual boot setup, if your mobo uses an Intel chipset supporting SATA RAID, I would recommend configuring the SATA controller as SATA RAID mode in XP using the latest driver from Intel's site for your chipset's SATA controller (Intel now refers to its software RAID as "Intel Rapid Storage Technology" but it used to be called something like "Intel Matrix Storage Technology", all the same thing with different confusing names). Get the F6 installation driver from Intel's support site under "chipset" software. You only need to use the F6 installation method or XP - Win7 shouldn't need it and should install in SATA RAID mode if it is set in the BIOS, without needing the driver. Windows SATA RAID mode offers basically the same performance as AHCI mode, and is supported by both XP and Win7, so it allows a dual boot setup without it becoming necessary to reconfigure the SATA mode setting in the BIOS when booting to a different OS. Running the SATA controller in RAID mode works just fine even without actually setting up a RAID array, so you don't need to set up any RAID drive(s), and if the RAID setup screen appears during boot you can just ignore it and let it time out and the boot process will continue after a few seconds (your boot drive should show up as a "Non-RAID" drive, which is just fine, no problem whatsoever). And that's it, no SATA hassles when dual boot is set up. If your chipset does not support RAID mode then it may also not support AHCI mode in Win7, so then you will have to configure basic SATA mode (enhanced mode) for XP, (don't use IDE legacy mode, too slow) and then let Win7 detect the SATA mode aet in the BIOS and install it (Edit: fixed the formatting)
post edited by Goddard - 2012/08/10 10:31:40
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Goddard
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 08:46:07
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(sorry, duplicated post)
post edited by Goddard - 2012/08/10 10:23:39
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 09:15:46
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The easiest way I found of doing the SATA thing under XP is just to boot in IDE mode install the SATA drivers in XP then change the BIOS setting to the right mode before the next boot.
Windows 7 just configures itself after the BIOS change anyway.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 12:02:11
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slartabartfast
OK, I thought System restore only affected the OS, so I don't really understand how it would overwrite a different OS on a different drive,
Apparently this is a housekeeping/safety measure that is programmed in to XP to make it search the drives/partitions that are mounted (made accessible) to XP on booting, and delete volume shadow copies (restore points, previous file versions, and some backups etc.) that are defective. XP sees shadow copies created by newer versions of Windows as being defective, since the format they are saved in by later versions is unknown to XP. There is a workaround that basically denies XP the right to mount some partitions/drives that may contain shadow copy data that you want to preserve. Since those drives and partitions are not available to XP it will not destroy the restore points there, but you will not be able to access those partitions from XP for any other reason either.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/926185
http://www.vistax64.com/tutorials/127417-system-restore-points-stop-xp-dual-boot-delete.html
If you are only using shadow copies (restore points) located on the boot partition of Windows 7, you can just make that partition marked as offline on XP boot. Another perhaps simpler but more expensive way to achieve a "dual boot" would be to load each OS on a separate drive and swap them using a removable drive rack. In that case the other OS is physically unavailable for mischief when booting. If you are using shadow copies to keep backups on other partitions, they need to be protected as well.
Thanks - I understand that better now - I assumed that each OS drive would not see the other if that OS were not in use.
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 12:04:16
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Jonbouy
IMO Windows System Restore sucks whether you use a dual boot or not. It's a crap-shoot as to whether it fixes what needs fixing when you need call on it and it runs in the background writing to disk when you don't necessarily want it too.
Get yourself an imaging solution such as Acronis, Active DiskImage, et al and do all your imaging from an optical boot disk, you don't need any of that garbage installed on the OS. A full image restore will take you back to EXACTLY where you were before things went wrong and takes less than 10 minutes on an average OS drive.
The dual boot has been bullet-proof for me since Vista came out which is when I first set it up, it doesn't need maintenance or seperate drives and it is simple to set up if you follow the instructions out there.
The first Google hit I got on the subject covers setting it up simply and highlights any caveats (which for me are none).
http://www.sevenforums.co...tion-windows-7-xp.html
Thanks JB - Acronis sounds like a plan - I presume I would store the image on an external drive in case of HD failure ?
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paulo
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 12:11:17
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Goddard
I'm running basically the same dual boot setup as Jonbuoy, with XP (64 in my case) and Win7 x64 installed on separate boot partitions on a single drive, and it works fine. XP should be installed first, and then when you install Win7 just select the other empty partition (or create it in unpartitioned free space on the drive) and Win7 will create a boot menu so you can select which OS to boot when you start up the PC. One thing to note: Win7 supports "AHCI" mode of SATA, but XP doesn't. The SATA controllers on most recent motherboards can be configured in BIOS setup as IDE (legacy) mode, SATA (enhanced) mode, AHCI (advanced SATA features) mode and SATA RAID(Windows software RAID) mode. Except for IDE mode, installing Windows using these SATA modes requires first setting the desired SATA mode in the BIOS setup and then, when installing Windows XP, hitting F6 and then installing the appropriate SATA driver from a floppy disk or USB flashdrive because without the driver Windiws XP won't see the SATA drive. In an XP/Win7 dual boot setup, if your mobo uses an Intel chipset supporting SATA RAID, I would recommend configuring the SATA controller as SATA RAID mode in XP using the latest driver from Intel's site for your chipset SATA controller (Intel now refers to its software RAID as "Intel Rapid Storage Technology" but it used to be called something like "Intel Matrix Storage Technology", all the same thing with different confusing names). Get the F6 installation driver from Intel's support site under "chipset" software. You only need to use the F6 installation method or XP - Win7 shouldn't need it and should install in SATA RAID mode if it is set in the BIOS, without needing the driver. Windows SATA RAID mode offers basically the same performance as AHCI mode, and is supported by both XP and Win7, so it allows a dual boot setup without it becoming necessary to reconfigure the SATA mode setting in the BIOS when booting to a different OS. Running the SATA controller in RAID mode works just fine even without actually setting up a RAID array, so you don't need to set up any RAID drive(s), and if the RAID setup screen appears during boot you can just ignore it and let it time out and the boot process will continue after a few seconds (your boot drive should show up as a "Non-RAID" drive, which is just fine, no problem whatsoever). And that's it, no SATA hassles when dual boot is set up. If your chipset does not support RAID mode then it may also not support AHCI mode in Win7, so then you will have to configure basic SATA mode (enhanced mode) for XP, (don't use IDE legacy mode, too slow) and then let Win7 detect the SATA mode set in the BIOS and install its compatible mode, and if that doesn't work then you will need to go into the BIOS and change the SATA mode.
Thanks for trying to help, but in all honesty you lost me around the middle of the second line. After that it may as well be written in Swahili for all the sense it makes to me, but I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain, not your fault that I'm so clueless :)
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Goddard
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 18:16:58
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paolo, sorry if that got too technical. Also, apologies for it all running together as one paragraph, I'm on the road and was remoting my post thru a different browser running on another box. Oops, too technical again?
If you use a PC to stream audio, you should really learn about disk performance config. It's been like that since the dawn of the DAW.
If it's too technical for you, don't worry, hopefully your DAW will still work ok without your intervention. But if you encounter performance issues, time to learn more or consult someone more techie.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/09 21:02:19
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Goddard
paolo, sorry if that got too technical. Also, apologies for it all running together as one paragraph, I'm on the road and was remoting my post thru a different browser running on another box. Oops, too technical again?
If you use a PC to stream audio, you should really learn about disk performance config. It's been like that since the dawn of the DAW.
If it's too technical for you, don't worry, hopefully your DAW will still work ok without your intervention. But if you encounter performance issues, time to learn more or consult someone more techie.
Too technical, and irrelevant to setting up a dual boot OS. Why obfuscate a fairly simple procedure with techno babble overload just for the sake of it?
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Goddard
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/10 10:56:19
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Jonbouy
Too technical, and irrelevant to setting up a dual boot OS.
Why obfuscate a fairly simple procedure with techno babble overload just for the sake of it?
"Too technical" would have been giving an explanation of how to set AHCI mode up in XP. "Irrelevant" and "obfuscate" would have been linking to an unnecessary BCD editor.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/10 20:54:30
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Goddard
Jonbouy
Too technical, and irrelevant to setting up a dual boot OS.
Why obfuscate a fairly simple procedure with techno babble overload just for the sake of it?
"Too technical" would have been giving an explanation of how to set AHCI mode up in XP. "Irrelevant" and "obfuscate" would have been linking to an unnecessary BCD editor.
I'm wondering how I've managed to stumble along in the dark for so long until you turned up to enlighten everyone on your mid 90's technology expertise. When I next need to solder some 256k memory chips in seperate banks to my motherboard I'll know just who to call on. A real old fashioned outlook from back in the days when IT was an acronym from 'Ivory Tower' when so called 'experts' could BS everyone that what they knew was beyond the scope of mere mortals and therefore should command a ridiculous fee. I haven't come across anybody like that for a good 15 years but you seem to be a great reminder of a bygone era and you are not even getting paid for it. I managed to set-up AHCI mode on a dual boot system without any guidance from your superior wisdom and the unnecessary BCD editor might indeed be unecessary but will probably yeild the desired result far quicker than trawling through one of your posts on the subject. I get it, let's all do it the manly way and not use a convinient BCD editor so we can impress our girlfriends into the bargain. Yeah, I'm right with you tough guy, lets make it seem like a real mission to set up a windows dual boot, install a driver and make a switch to a bios setting. That should get 'em all thinking I've entered some serious echelon of Geekdom and get them lauding me as some kind of hero. I'm glad you've turned up though I haven't had this much fun for ages.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/08/10 21:00:53
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Goddard
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/10 23:25:21
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Yawn
The OP had said he wasn't going to do the setup himself, from which I took it he was going to have someone more technically inclined do it (who I thought it safe to assume could understand SATA setup and driver installation).
You said you couldn't even remember how you did your dual boot setup, but you were pretty sure you installed XP first, and I just filled in the gap.
I mean, if you were the OP and someone was saying "yeah, it will work, it did for me although I can't actually remember how I did it, but I think this is how... but if that doesn't work, here's a link to a BCD editor utility just in case" now, would you hesitate?
There IS a difference between just getting lucky and having things all magically work, and having things all work as expected without problem because one actually knew what one was doing.
SATA modes frequently catch people out, even in Win7. Try changing to AHCI mode after unknowingly installing Win7 in IDE mode because your new mobo was set to IDE by default, and enjoy the fun!.
Hey, I'm on to your campaign of policing others' posts in the CW forums. Seems I can rarely find a forum where you haven't gotten into it with someone over something or other. Next you'll be accusing me of violating the TOS for being too geeky...
Yawn
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Jonbouy
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/11 07:43:02
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Setting up AHCI mode on Windows 7 after install. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922976 The instructions for installing it on XP come with the drivers suited to your mobo/setup. Get them here. http://downloadcenter.int...%22AHCI+SATA+Driver%22 Detailed instructions on setting up the dual boot I already gave here. http://www.sevenforums.co...tion-windows-7-xp.html The whole topic really wasn't any more complicated than that so I can understand why Paulo turned grey and eventually tuned out. @Goddard, you've got me wrong I already stated that I'm really enjoying your work and thought you appreciated irony...  Causing somebody to phase out when you are trying to help would certainly fall into my understanding of what irony is all about. So well done.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/08/11 07:56:41
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Goddard
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Re:Dual Boot OS ?
2012/08/11 19:13:28
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Whatever...
Came across a remark by someone else (perhaps a countryman of yours) in another forum which I really think puts it more succinctly than I ever could:
"If your computer is your instrument, you'd better learn to play it!"
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