Helpful ReplyDynamic mics sound flat

Author
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5694
  • Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
  • Location: Richmond Virginia USA
  • Status: offline
2013/07/21 21:07:45 (permalink)

Dynamic mics sound flat

I usually record my friends in my music room with nice mics.
 
When people gig out, they use a lot dynamic mics to avoid feedback.
 
I just finished mixing up 3 hours of music from a couple of weeks ago, and it doesn't have the dynamics or the high end or something... Not sure how to fix it. Is it fixable? Some magic formula of expanders and EQing?
 
I did EQ and I did the best I could with what I had. I personally think you do what you can with what you've got. This seems to be a limitation of capturing live recordings. Perhaps it's also why people do Studio work ?
 
 

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#1
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/22 08:14:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/07/22 17:59:45
Dynamic mics generally have less high freq response than many condensers and indeed many condensers have hyped high frequency response so comparing a normal dynamic mic to a hyped condenser will reinforce your conclusions.
 
One thing about nicer dynamic mics is that you can push the high end up with EQ and they can seem much smoother than a affordable condenser that has the hi freq boost built in.
 
It's more likely that your mics recorded the sound of the room and the bleed (even though I'm sure you did your best to minimize it) has cut down on the possibilities to get a clear and precise high end character.
 
If this is something you need to improve then I'd try to look for EQ cuts in the tracks you have that will help to open up some space for any brightness that you have captured to become apparent.
 
We all know about how room modes and standing waves will mess with your lower mid range. Consider that similar things are happening with the high frequencies so go see if some hi cuts or notches can clear up space for the instruments that are offering the brighter sounds.
 
Keep in mind that a studio production not only lets you focus on the sounds you are getting but also on the sounds you want to avoid. The live gig is totally different.
 
It's also helpful to know that many famous live recordings have been substantially augmented by studio over dubs.
 
Finally, you may be at a point where you work ethic and attention span are out distancing the ability of your gear to capture the super sweet sounding high end. When you see guys arguing about whether or not a $1000/per preamp channel is worth it... or you see guys arguing about the sound of power supply design... a lot of it has to do with the character of the signal and not just it's amplitude or basic frequency response. I know you just made some good investments, so I'm not trying to encourage you to spend more money... rather I'm hoping to explain this so as to suggest that you may be judging the results too critically.
 
 
all the best,
mike
 
 
 
 
 


#2
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9871
  • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
  • Location: Ohio
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/22 10:22:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/07/22 17:59:47
Dynamic mics tend to be less sensitive... and don't typically capture all the subtle nuance that a condenser would.
Keep in mind that dynamic mics also vary
ie:  An SM57 doesn't capture much bottom or high-end... whereas a RE320 or SM7b captures more of both.
Listen to a voice recorded with a RE320.  Lot's of upper-mid articulation... that might make you think it was recorded with a condenser.
 
The dynamic range captured with a dynamic mic may not be as extreme as with a condenser.
With high-tranient material (drums, electric bass, etc), you my find that dynamic mics capture a more aggressive attack.
ie:  Record a bass cab (or large tom) with a LDC and a SM57.  The LDC will capture more bottom and top... but will probably have a softer attack.  The 57 will capture a nice focused/aggressive mid-range attack (but lacks bottom/top).  Mix the two mics together... and you've got a nice balance of all the above.
 
Use the best choices you have for each particular scenario.
Use each mic's strengths/weaknesses to your advantage.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#3
rumleymusic
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1533
  • Joined: 2006/08/23 18:03:05
  • Location: California
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/22 12:50:52 (permalink)
My personal take in live recordings is to make sure the live and recorded sound are separate.  There is no worry about feedback in that case, and you can use condensers on drums and other instruments that might benefit.  That may be difficult with a vocalist where only one mic is practical, but in that case dynamic mics work quite well.  The SM58 is actually quite dull, and the SM7B is a little big for stage.  I like the highs of the Sennheiser e835, and of course they do make condenser hypercardioid vocal mics which should be safe from feedback.  

Daniel Rumley
Rumley Music and Audio Production
www.rumleymusic.com
#4
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5694
  • Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
  • Location: Richmond Virginia USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/22 18:20:08 (permalink)
Thanks, Rumley! Unfortunately, it is precisely on the vocalists that I'm wishing I had something I feel is missing.
 
I get you when it comes to miking something that isn't going through the mains -- then you can use the mic best suited for the job. For me, I'm limited by the number of channels I can record at a time (18 currently) and by my mics (12 currently).
 
Thanks, Jim and Mike. In this particular case I've been mixing, the mics used on stage weren't mine. I showed up on a Friday after the sound check and we quickly moved all the stuff into my gear. I don't know, even now, what the mics were. I'll find out for my benefit.
 
I noticed it the most as I compared it with mixes I've done using my mics in the past and I could hear it was missing a sparkle I've gotten used to.
 
Based on the reaction of the bands I mix for, I'm doing fine. Still learning. Thanks for the tips. I think a nice Dynamic is on the list for my locker.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#5
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5694
  • Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
  • Location: Richmond Virginia USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/27 07:00:32 (permalink)
https://soundcloud.com/susanandjohng
 
These are posts of the flat sounding mics. I did my best.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#6
Jay Tee 4303
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 246
  • Joined: 2013/01/08 08:42:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/27 14:20:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/07/27 22:27:46
Within some limits, the behavior of a mic is dependant on the mechanical design. With both a condenser and a dynamic, you have a pressure sensitive diaphragm that moves with changes in air pressure. The dynamic diaphragm is attached to a voice coil, basically a spool of wire, that moves inside a magnetic field, and the interaction between the wire coil and the magnetic field creates electrostatic pressure, or a voltage, which is the source of the signal you record or process.
 
In the condenser, there is a thin layer of conductive material attached to the diaphragm, ideally one atom thick, but thicker in actual practice. Phantom power charges the diaphragm conductor, and moving the charged diaphragm causes a similar charge on another coated diaphragm, and creates the signal voltage.
 
(As usual, I greatly simplify, and sometimes actually misstate the physics of these interactions, for the purpose of illustration.)
 
So you have the motor out of a Ferrari, in each mic. The diaphragm. Lightweight, built for speed. Now tie one of them to a piece of aluminum foil with fishing line, (the condenser mic) and tie the other Ferrari racing motor to an iron boat achor with a massive length of iron chain (the dynamic mic). It's going to take a lot longer to get that boat anchor moving, because it is heavy. Once its moving, it will take a good while to stop, too, and...its likely to overshoot some, compared to the lightweight aliuminum foil.
 
The aluminum foil will accelerate and decelerate, very quickly, but, it is a much more fragile system, a strong breeze can scramble it...lets just leave the details beyond that alone today, ok?
 
So...
 
GENERALLY...
 
You are going to get quicker and more accurate response out of the condenser, at the price of needing an external power supply, and in a much less durable mechanism.
 
The dynamic will be able to hammer nails into wood if you are short of tools in a pinch, and handle much higher sound pressure levels, at the price of giving away some of the high frequency response it doesn't have the quickness to handle, and possibly at the price of "smearing" some of the higher frequency content that it can handle.
 
Finally, remember that both of these designs have been around a LONG time, and during that time, new materials have been invented, computer simulation for design purposes has begun AND come of age, and designers have been working on ALL of these advantages and disadvantages in BOTH type mics, so the general rule doesn't apply to the degree it did in the early days, in fact, some designs now flip the generalities backwards, at the price of other, yet undiscussed, resulting compromises and tradeoffs.
 
Stick your dynamic in front of the guitarist's wall of Marshalls, turned up to 12, or a quarter inch off the kick drum head, or knock the corrosion off the battery terminals of your truck if it won't start after the gig when the parking lot is dead empty and Nowhereville has rolled up the sidewalks.
 
Take your condenser out of it's padded case in the smoke and dust free studio environment and shock mount it on an out of the freeway mic stand to record the airy harps of heaven along with your latest angel's pristine voice.
 
Once you have that down, flip em around (use a cheap condenser to begin with) and see what you can do with them. If you can get awesome vocals and harps out of a battery acid infested dynamic, you might just have a long string Grammys ahead of you.
post edited by Jay Tee 4303 - 2013/07/27 14:31:16

IBM PC/XT
1 MB RAM
8087 Math Co-Processor
5 Megabyte Seagate Hard Drive
Twelvetone Cakewalk Version 2.0
#7
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5694
  • Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
  • Location: Richmond Virginia USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/27 22:20:51 (permalink)
Poetic and helpful Jay Tee. You made me smile and taught me something. Thanks!!

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#8
Jay Tee 4303
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 246
  • Joined: 2013/01/08 08:42:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/28 13:02:02 (permalink)
There are videos of SM58s on Youtube, used to pound nails, stir beer, getting run over, deep frozen, etc. I guess they really are pretty tough.
 
:-)

IBM PC/XT
1 MB RAM
8087 Math Co-Processor
5 Megabyte Seagate Hard Drive
Twelvetone Cakewalk Version 2.0
#9
IK Obi
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1549
  • Joined: 2011/02/22 20:25:48
  • Location: Salt Lake City, UT
  • Status: offline
Re: Dynamic mics sound flat 2013/07/28 16:23:29 (permalink)
Many dynamic mics are road beasts. Durability is a big plus IMO and why I have way more dynamics than condensers.

No longer with IK. Here is my WebsiteTwitterYouTube | Facebook | Instagram
 
#10
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1