Thanks so much for the offer. Actually, if you could help explain this "bussing" concept on the Echo console that would be useful. I am unclear as to why when I select a particular output bus, input channels get muted. The documentation doesn't really give a good explanation of this, but being how you've used the Layla for some time, and have something of a gift for understandable explanation, perhaps you would provide a few words to help me understand?

Well..... For some reason the programmers set things up that way as a default. I personally think it is for soloing the individual outputs when using it used as a stand-alone console.

Anyway.... I always unmuted everything because I do everything else in Sonar.

Hope this helps.

Hey BlindDog - great and useful information. Can you tell us a bit about how the latency and CPU utilization are with JUST the Layla card?
It looks like a great PCI do-it-all-here kind of box that would be a bump up from my USB version of the OmniStudio I have now. Mind you, I like mine, just looking for the best "bang"...I have a few issues with mine that I need to resolove in reards to latency (WDM only goes down to 10, which is too high for triggering softsynths for me), but ASIO has some issues with sync, which I've worked around, but are a bit of a nuisanse.

I'm interested in mostly real-world latency and how far off from reported latency it is, and how the CPU performs when asking for softsynths at this low latency.

You input so far and in advance is appreciated.

bump - hey bd...any other thoughts?

Sorry you've been swamped. That doesn't give me a good feeling about the card, considering it's PCI and all...my USB 1.1 is getting lower latency than that - that issue and the CPU utilization AT low latencies are the two main reasons why I'd consider using something else. I'd also prefer to use WDM (it is more "accurate", or at least was on my old card) to ASIO (which I'm using now) and it sounds like your issues are with the WDM driver...bummer. I'll keep my eyes open for other users' experiences.

The number of ins and outs is the big difference. The Gina20 (which I started with and still have installed with the Layla 3G) has 2 in/8-out. The Gina3G has 2 in/6 out. I think the headphone output is the other 2 outs, but that's about a dorky configuration IMO.

To say "is the price difference worth it" is something of a misleading question without really defining what "it" is exactly. MF has the Gina3G at $349, the Layla3G at $499, so you have to weight the $150 difference against the extra ins and outs. Do you need 8 inputs to the computer? Stated another way, do you think at some point in time you may need more than 2 in? And outs - is 6 enough outputs or would it be better to have all eight? The way I have traditionally mixed (with the Gina20) I take 6 out of the computer and mix going back into the other 2, so while upgrading from the Gina20 to a Gina3G would have given me 24-bit, I would have lost two channels in the process (factoring out that headphone output, which may not even be two discreet outs - on the Layla3G the headphone output is a mirror of out1+2.).

Another consideration is what you intend to plug into. Do you have a mixer with a configuration that could easily accommodate 8 ins/outs?

And then there's the consideration regarding location of the breakout box. I had a rack space available and the Layla3G fits there nicely. The old Gina20 hung off a cord about three feet from the computer, so I could never get it off the floor. The Gina3G has an 8' cable (according to the specs) but that's still not enough to reach my rack - as if it'd mount in a rack with those rounded corners anyway? (I would think you'd want to keep the Gina3G somewhere handy so that you could easily reach the ins and trims.) The Layla3G has a nice 15' cable that just 'fits' my configuration.

So to answer your question, in my configuration, considering the space available, the gear already in place, and the needs of the studio (ins/outs), the Layla3G has been a winner so far. I'm only a month or so into it but so far it's been rock solid. As I said earlier I've left the Gina20 in place and the Layla3G and Gina20 play very nicely together. Eventually I plan on replacing the Gina with an ADAT interface (ADA8000, probably) and then have all 16 channels at 24-bit. Until then, things are rolling along very nicely.

----

More notes about latency: I've been doing a lot of tests with latency to see if I could get it down to something reasonable enough to drive a soft-synth real-time, and I've been unable to improve upon my earlier tests. I've tried the ASIO driver (which really doesn't play well on this computer) and the PureWave driver (which seemed like a very good idea) but it doesn't appear to be supported by Sonar. (Once I enabled Purewave, the Layla3G became completely invisible to Sonar. Not sure what's up with that, seems like PureWave could be a real gem if it were supported.) My MO anyway is to record via the QS7 and then swap out a softsynth sound so I'm rarely (if ever) trying to play a softsynth realtime. (Sorry, I know that's about no help.)

The one thing I do like is the ability to gang the channels into one big mass so that Sonar sees all 8 channels as one audio device instead of 4 separate stereo devices. Word is that this improves the efficiency of the driver, but hanging around at 20ms (typically) I haven't really seen too much of a difference in anything measurable or audible.

I use a Layla24/96 and I was at NAMM in Anaheim and I stopped by the Echo booth, and we talked about the new products and the old, I would buy anything the Echo company makes, they rate with the best. The drivers are some of the best in the business, My DAW is as stable as can be and that is because of the drivers. One more thing they are writing new drivers for the 64 bit OS soon to appear and they are writing them for products as far back as the Layla 20. So whatever Echo product you own will not become obsolite.

Buy It !!!!!

BlindDog, thank you so much for all of the information. I am still debating on the purchase of the 3G and your reviews have been very helpful.

Thank you,
Erik

ORIGINAL: ohhey
It's not just a problem with the ADA8000, it's ANY outboard converter. It's a drag to have to set the sample rate each time when you go from.. let's say tracking and mixing in Sonar at 48K and then switch over to Sound Forge to work on a 44.1 / 16bit stereo file for CD. With a all-in-one sound card that has it's own converters it just switches to 44.1 as soon as you hit play without you even knowing what happened or having to do anything. With outboard converters you have to remember to hit the button every time, the sound card driver can't do it for you. This is not a big deal for everyone but I must be lazy because I want it to just happen.

Yes I discovered this recently with my external Myteks. I've gotta get up out of my chair, turn around and change the itty-bitty switches on the Myteks. I'm also moving from 44.1 K to 48K, because it seem I can hear slight improvement.

Speaking of my Myteks, I can barely hear any difference between them and my cheap-a$$ MAudio 2496. At over 10 times the price, that's a bit dissapointing.

When I heard about the Gina 3G, I immediately checked the ECHO Web site only to discover that it only had 2 analog inputs, just like its mother Gina24 which I owned before (excellent audio quality though). I can't understand why they made the same "mistake" again. Why so many outputs and so few inputs? 3-to-1 ratio. Unbelievable.

One huge advantage of having more inputs in an audio interface (especially for multi-synth users like myself) is not needing a mixer. This advantage automatically brings more advantages:

1. One less source of noise (mixer) to blow your brains out about,
2. Therefore less cables,
3. Therefore cleaner recordings,
4. Therefore less audio processing (think about it),
5. Less power consumption,
6. More free space in studio
7. I'm sure I forgot other things..

Congratulations Mannytrinidad. That gizmo will serve you very well, I am sure.

Hi Kevin,
I agree with most of what you said (especially the latency issue), but the main question of why a card would have so many outputs and so few inputs wasn't addressed. Know any specific example of where a recordist uses all 8 outputs of the Gina 24 for instance, while having as little at 2 inputs? Ask anyone who uses multiple instruments in their studio and they'll tell you that they want something with as many inputs as possible (even if they have a mixing board). Also, it is not an accident that cards with more inputs are much more expensive than those with few.

I have read several pro reviews of the Gina 24 in the past. All mentioned the lack of inputs in its cons; they said it should have had 2 more inputs at the least.

I did use a Behringer console in the past, and yes, it was noisy. My Aardvark Aark24 provides as many as 8 analog inputs and 1 optical input, meaning I could use as many as 5 synthesizers at once (if I had that many) and still get by.

As far as studio space is concerned, I'd rather have an extra synth with thousands of patches than a mixer. You can't create music without an instrument, but you can without a mixer.

Are you an acoustic instrument user?

lol Kevin, yes. One can record music with just their voice indeed. But isn't that an instrument just like any other? :)

In my original post, I put "mistake" between quotes. What was meant by that was constructive criticism concerning a technical issue (addition of more inputs would be nice, that's all).

As for my question regarding whether you're an acoustic musician, I knew you were (because of the importance for you to use a mixing board). So I just wanted to ask to see if my assumption was valid:-)

How do you route 6 outputs from your audio card back to the 2 inputs when they're already in use?

Thanks Kevin.
P.S: anywhere one can listen to your work?

Hi!! My Layla 3g arrives yesterday. I quickly unistall my St Audio DSP2000 and install the Layla without ANY problems. It took me about 20 minuts to setup the drivers, the card and the breakbox. Quickly started SONAR and....... everything goes smooth!!! Great!!! 0 problems with clicks and pops, no distortion... ( i write this cause i spend a lot of time setting up my old card)

So, the first day with Layla was excellent. The only thing i notice is that the CPU usage is a little high than with the DSP2000, currently i'm playing with the settings to get the best i can. Now i work with 11ms latency with SONAR. I record the 8 analog inputs at the same time for about 5 minutos without any problem. With 11 tracks with realtime effects i get about 18-20% CPU usage. I remeber got a lower percent before. Do you guys have an advice for me about this? I'm playing with the Console settings. i set the buffer to 512. In Sonar, i set the buffers to 512 16 bits and 1024 24bits.

My first impression is the the drivers are really good. Confused a bit with the Analog outs settings on the Console but i need more oportunity to learn it.

Ahh, how i can switch between ASIO drivers and WME drivers? I read that Sonar works better with ASIO and i want to do a test. Thanks!!

Thanks, but how i can switch between ASIO and WDM? How i select the driver i want to use in Sonar?

I use an Echo Layla 24/96 and I am very happy with that product, I talked to the Echo reps at the winter NAMM, and they are in the process of writingh new drivers for the new 64 bit OS ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE LAYLA 20, that means they are interested in supporting all of their customers even though the product is long discontinued. The 3 G has better converters than the 24/96 also. Their drivers are some of the best and most stable in the soundcard business.