Helpful ReplyEdit MIDI volume control

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guyshomenet
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2016/06/03 22:34:51 (permalink)

Edit MIDI volume control

Kinda a novice on MIDI, so bear with me.
 
Using a very old keyboard to lay down drum tracks. One side effect is that (I think) it is inducing a control code that causes the master volume within Battery 3 to drop from 0 to -11dB the moent I hit 'play' (regardless of where in the mix I'm starting).
 
1) What is the likely explanation, aside from a CC being induced? NI's forum not showing anything but external CCs being a likely culprit.
 
2) I have gone through a lot of docs and hint sheets, and none of the editors with X2 are showing be CCs on any midi track. What is the best way to display, then edit control codes?
 
 
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Cactus Music
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/04 00:48:05 (permalink)
I'm not sure if this is still a MIDI issue with Sonar. but the same happens to me with certain midi files and there's no way to view midi events like PG Volume and Pan. They just are nowhere to be found. So like you,every time you start the sequence it defaults back. It's certainly not in the event list. 
 And ya, even if you start in the middle they revert. This is not true of all sequences so It might be system exclusive data,, but I always tell that dialogue NO. 
So I do a few things. 
#1- Open the sequence in Cubase where these changes are easily made and deleted, save, and re open in Sonar. 
#2  using "Split" right before the first note event in a track and deleting the blank part to the left seems to remove the ghosts. 
#3- Copy the data to a new track and changing the channel. 

Johnny V  
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MarioD
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/04 09:36:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby guyshomenet 2016/06/04 21:44:54
The problem may be your old keyboard is sending very low velocities or that -11dB is the initial setting for Battery 3.
 
Open the track in the piano roll view and look at the velocities. If they are low you can highlight all of the track and raise one of the velocities and the rest will follow. 
 
A better option might be to add a CC7 (CC7-CC11-CC2 all affect volume) at the beginning of the track.  While in the piano roll view click on the little + button on the velocity window, add CC7 and set CC7 to around 100.  If too loud lower the 100 and if too soft raise it.  You may have to play with both CC7 and velocity to get what you want.  All of this can be easily accomplished in Sonar.
 
Good luck and I hope this helps.

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bvideo
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/04 11:19:47 (permalink)
Cactus Music
I'm not sure if this is still a MIDI issue with Sonar. but the same happens to me with certain midi files and there's no way to view midi events like PG Volume and Pan. They just are nowhere to be found. So like you,every time you start the sequence it defaults back. It's certainly not in the event list. 
 And ya, even if you start in the middle they revert. This is not true of all sequences so It might be system exclusive data,, but I always tell that dialogue NO. 
So I do a few things. 
#1- Open the sequence in Cubase where these changes are easily made and deleted, save, and re open in Sonar. 
#2  using "Split" right before the first note event in a track and deleting the blank part to the left seems to remove the ghosts. 
#3- Copy the data to a new track and changing the channel. 




When Sonar loads a MIDI file that has leading program changes and volume & pan settings, Sonar propagates these into the track header widgets (bank, program, vol, pan, chr, rev). This means they can not be seen when looking at the event view or any other view.
 
The way to edit them is in the track header. If they are edited in the synth parameter interface, they will be reset (reverted) when starting to play. Later in the song, if there are any changes in these parameters, they will be seen in the event view.

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Cactus Music
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/04 11:24:46 (permalink)
If you change a pan setting in the track header it will revert right back..  The PG changes wil stick,,, but sometimes there's a PG or pan or Vol in the middle of the song and they will revert..

Johnny V  
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brundlefly
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/04 12:37:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby guyshomenet 2016/06/04 21:48:52
If the volume control in a MIDI track (or the MIDI section of a Simple Instrument track) is enabled (no parens round the value) that value will be sent as CC7 every time you start playback. For most synths, a value of 127 should max out the synth's output, but some have a Master Volume control that goes higher than 0dB, and 127 is mapped to something less than max output. If you need that extra volume, right-click the Volume control in the MIDI track and choose Disable Control; then set the output level you want in the synth's GUI, and it won't change. Or you can look into changing the mapping of CC7 to Master Volume in the synth's settings so that 127 is max output.
 
Personally, I usually just set all the MIDI volume controls to 127, and that usually gives plenty of output level for any purpose. 99% of the time, I'll end up pulling down the volume of the audio track that hosts the synth's output to get the right level in the mix.
 
 

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bvideo
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/04 12:43:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tparker24 2016/06/05 11:44:27
I'm not sure which scenario is causing the problems for you. And there are various preferences and track configurations that can cause differences in the behavior of events and automation. In preferences project midi, I use "zero controllers" and "patch/controller searchback" for the most predictable behaviors for my style. Also, my event list is set to show all possible event types. Also, in all my track headers, the [R] widget is set (to follow automation) and [Wt] (to record parameter/controller changes) is not set. So what follows is based on those settings (and different settings might not show the same behavior):
 
Here are some common scenarios:
The PG, pan, vol, etc. changes in the middle of a song loaded from a midi file ought to be seen in the event list. If not, bug.
If such events occur before any notes, they get put into the track parameters (header and inspector) and should not appear in the event list.
Events in the event list ought not change the value showing in the track header or inspector, otherwise bug.
Changing the widgets or sliders in the track header or track inspector during playback has an immediate audible effect but does not become a permanent part of the performance (not using the [Wt] setting). So when restarting playback, changes in those widgets only affect playback from the beginning of the song (i.e. before other events in the track).
Playing from the start of the song should not invoke events in the middle of the song (i.e. override track header parameters) until playback reaches those events. Otherwise, bug.
When an event is played through, or when playback is started after an event, the event sets the corresponding synth parameter, but does not change the track header/inspector value.
 
By the way, track header values can be deleted by double-clicking on the widgets, except bank and program which can be manually set to "none". Then the bank/pgm when starting playback from the song start could be unpredictable (depends where you last stopped playback) and the other parameters are "zeroed" (i.e. set to a noominal value) (because I chose "zero controllers when playback stops") or could be modified by controls in the synth view.
 
Editing parameters in the synth's own view is not permanent if there are settings in the track header or in the event list. I assume this is not what you are talking about.
 
I haven't loaded any problematic midi files with the issues you've seen, so I am only going by my observations and Sonar's known design parameters. Maybe you could post a MIDI file that shows these issues?
 
Bill B.

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guyshomenet
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/04 21:43:24 (permalink)
brundlefly
If the volume control in a MIDI track (or the MIDI section of a Simple Instrument track) is enabled (no parens round If you need that extra volume, right-click the Volume control in the MIDI track and choose Disable Control; then set the output level you want in the synth's GUI, and it won't change. Or you can look into changing the mapping of CC7 to Master Volume in the synth's settings so that 127 is max output.
 

 
Thanks. I am not seeing this in X2 (perhaps I am looking in the wrong place). The only MIDI track volume control I am aware of is the envelope, which of course I can raise, lower or delete. Are you refering to comething else?
 
brundlefly
If the volume control in a MIDI track (or the MIDI section of a Simple Instrument track) is enabled (no parens round the value) that value will be sent as CC7 every time you start playback.

 
Likewise, I am not seeing a track level volume control (with or without parens).
 
MarioD
A better option might be to add a CC7 (CC7-CC11-CC2 all affect volume) at the beginning of the track.  While in the piano roll view click on the little + button on the velocity window, add CC7 and set CC7 to around 100.  



Thanks. This may be my second workaround (the other was to use Boost11 on the Battery3 outputs to raise baseline volume).
 
bvideo
In preferences project midi, I use "zero controllers" and "patch/controller searchback" for the most predictable behaviors for my style. Also, my event list is set to show all possible event types. Also, in all my track headers, the [R] widget is set (to follow automation) and [Wt] (to record parameter/controller changes) is not set. 

 
Likewise, my project/midi settings are the same, as are showing all event types and [R][Wt] as you do.
 
bvideo
By the way, track header values can be deleted by double-clicking on the widgets, except bank and program which can be manually set to "none".

 
This is new territory for me. Unless there is a quick and easy track headers, I have some searching and reading to do.
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brundlefly
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/05 02:41:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tparker24 2016/06/05 11:45:07
guyshomenet
The only MIDI track volume control I am aware of is the envelope, which of course I can raise, lower or delete. Are you refering to comething else?

 
X2 online help on using the Track Inspector (hotkey 'I' to open the Inspector)
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=Inspectors.3.html
 
X2 online Help on Track [Header] Controls
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=Playback.20.html#1066289
 
X2 online Help on using the Track Control Manager to set which track controls are visible (best to start with 'All'):
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=Arranging.10.html#1678563
 
 
 

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guyshomenet
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/05 15:41:11 (permalink)
A related and idiot-level Sonar/MIDI/Battery question.
 
If I use the volume envelope in Track 1, does that affect the volume on Track 2 if both ate pointed at the same Battery3 instance? A quick experiment indicates it does, and I suspect I really need to assign a specific channel for each.
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brundlefly
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Re: Edit MIDI volume control 2016/06/05 16:08:32 (permalink)
If you have more than one MIDI track pointing to the same synth port and channel, the highest numbered track will have the final say on the synth's Master Volume. What you want to do is use separate audio outputs of the synth with separate audio tracks, and mix using audio volume instead of MIDI volume.

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