Helpful ReplyEhancement Request: Support for K-System metering

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barryspearce
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2006/10/06 18:17:37 (permalink)

Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering

I would like to set my playback and bus meters to support K-System Metering.

This means I really want the following features:

1. The ability to define the colour bands for the meters,
2. The ability to control the labelling of the meter - i.e. for a K-20 meter I want 0dBFS to
read +20, and for K-12 to read +12.

OR

Be able to select 'standard' 'K-20', 'K-14' and 'K-12' as the meters.

For instance, I want standard meters with 90dB scale for recording to check noise floors and peaks to avoid clipping during recording. However for mixing I want K-20 meters, and then for mastering I want K-14 or K-12 (or less often K-20) meters depending on the type of track I am working on.

Any chances? I notice many other products now support K-System Metering including Wavelab 6
which is my prefered editor and CD mastering tool.

CAKEWALK REPLIED:
"I will send your feature request to the proper department. You may want to post this on the SONAR forum as well. The more
people that see the request, the more likely its implementation may be"

So, here I am making it public. Anyone else looking for these metering changes?

Cheers,
Barry

#1
Billy Buck
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/06 19:08:49 (permalink)
Yes, I would love to see K-Meter support in SONAR. Right now I use my Precison Limiter, on the master bus. Not so much for it's limiting, but for it's excellent K-Metering system support (selectable K-12, K-14 & K-20) & precise metering.

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#2
tunekicker
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/06 21:58:51 (permalink)
I'd like to see this feature as well. Reading Bob Katz's "Mastering Audio: the Art and the Science" was all the convincing I needed on the value of the K-system.

Peace,


- Tunes
#3
Xavier
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/06 22:32:07 (permalink)
This would definately be a nice feature to have. I'm all for it.

As it stands now it is easy for me to mentally think of -20 dBFS as Zero dB while mixing. Then while mastering I just use the Free Voxengo Span to see the RMS and PRMS levels in whatever K-System I need.

I support the standard fully and would like to see it incorporated in all digital software and hardware.
#4
jungfriend
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/07 01:21:53 (permalink)
Count me in too. I use Elemental Audio InspectorXL for this metering function but would happy to have it built into Sonar.

Paul

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#5
ooblecaboodle
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/07 06:47:35 (permalink)
remember that the K-system is not simply a different scale, it has different ballistics too. it is intended to give a better estimation of the overall loudness of a track.
Also, to use it properly, you should callibrate your monitoring levels.
#6
tarsier
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/07 12:38:57 (permalink)
Yes, I want K-Metering in Sonar as well. At the very least, they need to make the metering options much more customizable. They have the ballistics options there, but color and scale and such needs to be adjustable.

And it still annoys me that you can't adjust the reference point of Sonar's RMS meters. A -14 dBFS peak sine tone will read -17 on Sonar's RMS meters, whereas I would like it to read -14 as per the AES-17 specification. (unless they've changed that in Sonar 6)
#7
mwd
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/08 00:27:31 (permalink)
I second the EA Inspector XL. The 90 something page instruction manual alone was worth the cost. I think the Cakewalk meters are a perfect compliment to the K-System. Track with Cake and playback with K-System.
#8
higain_guitar
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/08 00:43:03 (permalink)
Yeah I'd like the K metering too for now I use voxengo elepant for k metering
#9
pgw
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RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2006/10/08 04:36:30 (permalink)
Another vote!

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#10
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/20 05:05:38 (permalink)
old threat ... but this did never happen, did it???
 
Mixbus has the K-14 build into its master bus (I wonder if K-metering is subject to license fees to mr. katz?).

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#11
bitflipper
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/20 08:53:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dream Logic Audio 2016/09/20 09:37:12
Mr. Katz does not collect licensing fees, AFAIK. He's more interested in promoting the standard than making a buck from it (although he does sell his own meter). 
 
IMO K-metering should only take place on the master bus, after the limiter. There'd be little benefit to offering it on every track and bus meter. For that reason, it makes more sense to implement K-metering in a plugin. CW could easily offer such a thing, but there are so many third-party options I'm not surprised they haven't bothered.
 
Keep in mind that meters are only half the K-system, with speaker/amp calibration being the other half. Back in 2006 when this thread was posted, K-metering was a particularly hot topic, mainly because it was new and most of us didn't understand it yet. IIRC there weren't even any K-meter plugins available at the time. Fast-forward to a decade later, it's a different world - gobs of K-enabled meters around, even while the K-system is in the process of being superseded in many quarters by EBU R-128 (although personally, Bob's system still does the trick for me).


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#12
THambrecht
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/20 10:03:38 (permalink)
K-meter as standard of each track makes no sense.
Only at the LAST point after all - at the VERY end.
I'm working with plugins from Nugenaudio. They make perfect loudness and analyses tools. But are very expensive.

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#13
glennstanton
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/20 10:37:54 (permalink)
i'm using the ozone 7 insight and/or SPAN for k-metering (actually LUFS...) http://help.izotope.com/docs/izotope-insight-help.pdf
 

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#14
vanceen
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/20 13:13:17 (permalink)
I'm using Izotope Insight. I would still love to see K-metering / LUFS built into SONAR, though.

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#15
Bassman002
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/21 04:46:32 (permalink)
Hi:)
 
I'd like to have EBU R 128 (-23dB) as Zero. 
But K-metering would be OK too! Or both to select?
 
At the moment I use DIGICheck ITU1770/EBU R 128 Meter
Bassman.
 
#16
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/21 07:09:40 (permalink)
THambrecht
K-meter as standard of each track makes no sense.
Only at the LAST point after all - at the VERY end.


 
I'm aware of that but thanks for mentioning as the OP from 2006 wanted it on every bus ...
 
post edited by Rob[at]Sound-Rehab - 2016/09/21 07:31:54

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#17
Jeff Evans
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/21 17:22:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dream Logic Audio 2016/09/21 18:10:04
Have a think for a moment what K metering is showing you.  It is showing rms levels of the signal and it shows a 0 dB VU reading when the signal is down at the K reference.  That we know.  It also means that there is a certain amount of headroom above that which is equal to the K reference.  eg if you choose to work at K-20 for example then it means there is 20 dB of headroom above the 0 dB VU mark.
 
One of the biggest mistakes I believe anyway is not pushing the fact that K metering DOES make sense not only on your final mix but also buses AND tracks folks.
 
In the old days we used VU meters to make sure we had nice constant rms levels on our multitrack tape tracks.  This always ensured there was enough signal on every track to be able to mix with.  This concept CAN be transferred over to digital by simply applying K metering while tracking.  There is no valid argument against this.
 
Most of you who only rely on peak metering for tracks will end up with tracks that may have constant peak levels but the rms levels that are underneath will vary all over the place.  I bet some of you find that when you are mixing there is not enough volume on a track to make the signal heard.  Even when a channel fader is pushed way up. 
 
When you monitor incoming K levels during tracking the opposite happens.  You end up with all of your tracks with a constant rms level and the peak levels vary.  But even so none of those peaks will clip anywhere because of the amount of headroom you have up your sleeve.  This makes mixing a breeze now because you will always have enough rms level to mix with.  In fact when track rms levels are very constant then you will find channel faders will often be at a similar level for a perfect mix. (not at unity mind you for obvious reasons but lower to allow for signals to add on a buss or stereo buss)
 
Studio One provides not only K metering everywhere but allows you to insert a plug on the input signal BEFORE it even reaches the track for recording.  Not sure if Sonar can do this but it is a damn cool feature and it means it is very easy to put a K meter right there.  Personally I prefer a VU meter type K meter as I like the needle movement.  And as Bit says there are now plenty of VU and K meters out there.
 
Sonar also should also fix its own rms metering at least so it conforms to the standard and not read 3 dB below.  Although this is actually correct (rms = peak - 3dB) it is not the standard.  But existing VU meters are not much use because they are way too low on the scale.  Hence the need for a K metering option where that rms signal now shows up as a 0 dB VU signal hence being much easier to read.
 
K metering is also tied closely to SPL monitoring levels in your room, so that is the other half of it.  That is not hard though, all you need is an SPL meter in your control room showing you how loud things are all the time.  You then choose to work at a suitable SPL level. eg 83 dB SPL etc.. If you change the K level in your system you just need to re adjust your monitoring levels to suit.
 
Another thing too K metering is very useful and is closely tied to LUFS metering as well.  For example for a typical piece (that has a fairly even overall rms level all the way through eg a pop song), a K -14 master puts you right in the ball park of a perfect -16 LUFS master as well.  Nothing to do here at all LUFS wise because it is already spot on.  A K-20 master puts you in the perfect -22 LUFS range for a perfect level for say a TV or radio soundtrack.
 
I also use Mixbus and it is cool that it has K metering but the problem there is that it is fixed at K-14.  While this is a great general K level it does not help if you want to work down at say K-20. They need to make it switchable for all the K system levels. eg K-12, K-14 and K-20.
 
K metering is slow though and wont help with very fast transient type signals and it is for this reason your peak meters are super important.  Peak metering should always be used in conjunction with K metering for best results.  Once you send  whole bunch of fast transient sounds to a buss though (eg drums) the rms levels will start to take effect and then you will see a decent rms level for a total drum buss so K metering eventually comes into its own even on drum buses.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2016/09/21 18:09:16

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#18
fitzj
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/21 18:14:06 (permalink)
Long overdue. Come on Cakewalk  lets have K Metering.
#19
bitflipper
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Re: RE: Ehancement Request: Support for K-System metering 2016/09/21 20:22:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2016/09/22 11:43:29
All you need...
http://www.voxengo.com/product/SPAN/
 
Simple formula (for rock/pop): Insert SPAN after your mastering limiter. Set its meter to K-14 and mode to "Master". Turn up the limiter until it's bouncing around the 0dB mark most of the time and not exceeding +4 dB on crescendos. If peaks aren't making it up to your limiter's brickwall setting, then you may be applying too much compression on drums. If the meter never moves off the 0dB mark you may be over-limiting; turn down the input or trim.
 
If the end result is too quiet for your style or genre, switch to K-12 and repeat. If it's still too quiet, turn your monitors up.
 
Yes, this is a gross oversimplification and doesn't apply to orchestral music or bluegrass, and doesn't mention speaker calibration or broadcast requirements. But if you're doing rock, pop, prog, metal or fusion and you are just starting to figure this stuff out, then the above method will get you into the ballpark. Then go buy a copy of Mastering Audio by Bob Katz and read it twice.
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by bitflipper - 2016/09/21 20:45:34


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