aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
Hello Everyone,
I have an array of drum synths/samplers, and no matter which one I pick, it feels like the kick is just WAY too boomy. Has anyone else ever noticed that? I always have to treat the kicks with an LPF and some other bass-reducing measures.
I would think that if a company is making a drum synth or sampler, they would make them sound good right out of the box, no?
I use Native Instruments Battery 4, AudioRealism 808/909 Drum Machine, Arturia Spark, etc.. (to name a few).
Was wondering if anyone else has this problem.
Thanks,
Adam
|
Kalle Rantaaho
Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7005
- Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
- Location: Finland
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 04:34:32
(permalink)
I think different VST software and sample library creators have different goals. Some produce sounds that are like plain live recordings and leave the effect works to the composer, some aim at more edited/production ready sounds. Hmmm...I don't regard LPF a bass reducing filter, actually, already the name states that it lets the low end pass (without blocking it). IMO, it leaves (with almost any average kick settings) the most hard-to-controll, boomy low end on the track, and eliminates the more easily controllable area, that gives kick drum the thuddy, firm body. LPF can be used as an element in controlling sub-bass, but that's another story. AFAIK, most often the character of the kick is between 45-70 Hz (body) and around 700-800 Hz (click). In the Addictive Drums kits that I use most I usually put a HPF at around 45 Hz, a gentle, narrow boost somewhere between 55-70 Hz and a little narrow boost around 800 Hz. I use mostly only "natural" sounds, though. Your mentiong the boomyness reminds me of myself starting with drum VSTs: It was an ahaa-experience to notice that the VST behaved in realistic way depending on whether I leave the kick drum key pressed or release it immediately. Holding the key down gave a thuddy sound just like when the kick drum mallet is held against the drum head to suffocate the boomy reverberation.
post edited by Kalle Rantaaho - 2014/04/14 05:01:08
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 09:35:39
(permalink)
Ooops, I meant an HPF (not LPF). :)
I just don't get it, if I was running a real Roland DR 909 and I set it up to route directly into the DAW with no plugins, it would sound PERFECT! I wouldn't need the HPF on the kick. The machine was meant to be used in live situations.
So it makes me wonder why all my VST's kick drums are sooo damn heavy on the bass end. 20 Hz to 60hz, and then again around 150hz to 200hz causing that box-like feel.
|
Kalle Rantaaho
Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7005
- Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
- Location: Finland
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 10:17:27
(permalink)
If no effects (in your signal chain) are in the picture, then I humbly admit I don't know . I've always assumed the many emulations of, say, Rolands drum machines are close enough to the real thing not to need very much tweaking.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 10:25:11
(permalink)
Yea, I don't know man. If you run it with a lot of synths and synth bass sounds, it does sound good, but when you drop the synths and run it just solo (or with 1 higher-end instrument, such as a piano), the thing sounds WAYYY too hard and boomy.
I'm looking for a clean, analog drum sound, something you might hear from the late 80's/early 90's. Not overbearing, just there as a normal kick... and I can't achieve it lol.
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 12:17:53
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2014/04/14 12:44:13
aglewis723
Yea, I don't know man. If you run it with a lot of synths and synth bass sounds, it does sound good, but when you drop the synths and run it just solo (or with 1 higher-end instrument, such as a piano), the thing sounds WAYYY too hard and boomy.
I'm looking for a clean, analog drum sound, something you might hear from the late 80's/early 90's. Not overbearing, just there as a normal kick... and I can't achieve it lol.
This is key. You should be making EQ & mix adjustements IN CONTEXT with all other instruments playing. If you go the other way and get it to sound how you want in Solo mode, when you've added the other instrumentation, you'll probably say " where's my kick gone"
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
dubdisciple
Max Output Level: -17 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5849
- Joined: 2008/01/29 00:31:46
- Location: Seattle, Wa
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 12:59:13
(permalink)
I wouldn't say "it's just you" but I also wouldn't say that all of the kicks on these synths are overly boomy. My son occasionally makes "trap beats" and he occasionally tries to make songs in Sonar. He asked me "where are the 808 sounds"? because he did not find anything boomy enough for that genre. I explained to him that the 808 sounds included with Sonar are pretty straight forward and are (if we are to believe the marketing) the sounds taken directly from Roland. He is used to working with a lot of the per-processed "drumkits" available on the web. To his ears, standard 808 and 909 are lacking boom. Imagine that! This was awhile back and he knows better now. In general 808 and 909 kicks are boomier than most acoustic drums but it is easily contriolled. Even in trap, dubstep and other bass heavy genres, the boomy bass is just one of several kick sounds used so that same 808 in a tighter, less boomy form is coming into play. Battery has a buttload of kicks, some boomy, some not so. I'm sure the same holds true for your other programs/samples.
It could also be your monitoring setup. The studio I work at had the sub wired wrong and cranked up too much when I started. Every kick sounded boomy. Upon making somne adjustments we got a better range listening to the exact same material.
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 13:10:10
(permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
aglewis723
Yea, I don't know man. If you run it with a lot of synths and synth bass sounds, it does sound good, but when you drop the synths and run it just solo (or with 1 higher-end instrument, such as a piano), the thing sounds WAYYY too hard and boomy.
I'm looking for a clean, analog drum sound, something you might hear from the late 80's/early 90's. Not overbearing, just there as a normal kick... and I can't achieve it lol.
This is key. You should be making EQ & mix adjustements IN CONTEXT with all other instruments playing.
If you go the other way and get it to sound how you want in Solo mode, when you've added the other instrumentation, you'll probably say " where's my kick gone"
This sir, is VERY true, but still I've heard synth-jams on youtube (basically a guy turns on an 808 or 909 drum machine then plays a bunch of synths along to it. He's not EQ'ing as parts come in and out... and it always sounds great.
|
dubdisciple
Max Output Level: -17 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5849
- Joined: 2008/01/29 00:31:46
- Location: Seattle, Wa
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 13:37:08
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby aglewis723 2014/04/14 14:35:12
aglewis723
Bristol_Jonesey
aglewis723
Yea, I don't know man. If you run it with a lot of synths and synth bass sounds, it does sound good, but when you drop the synths and run it just solo (or with 1 higher-end instrument, such as a piano), the thing sounds WAYYY too hard and boomy.
I'm looking for a clean, analog drum sound, something you might hear from the late 80's/early 90's. Not overbearing, just there as a normal kick... and I can't achieve it lol.
This is key. You should be making EQ & mix adjustements IN CONTEXT with all other instruments playing.
If you go the other way and get it to sound how you want in Solo mode, when you've added the other instrumentation, you'll probably say " where's my kick gone"
This sir, is VERY true, but still I've heard synth-jams on youtube (basically a guy turns on an 808 or 909 drum machine then plays a bunch of synths along to it. He's not EQ'ing as parts come in and out... and it always sounds great.
Just because they are not adjusting it in the video does not mean it was not adjusted. If this is not their first time jamming in this manner, odds are good the EQ is not sitting idle but was pre-adjusted before recording started. When I set up even for live events, I tend to make small eq adjustments to account for anticipated conflicts. Not saying this is the cascade but very much possible.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 17:04:44
(permalink)
The classic 808 family of "kick" sounds came from a gated sinewave generator. A HPF on an 808 sample is therefore simply a volume control.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 17:51:56
(permalink)
bitflipper
The classic 808 family of "kick" sounds came from a gated sinewave generator. A HPF on an 808 sample is therefore simply a volume control.
Not quite, that is a bit of an over generalisation from someone who may not know the 808 Kick sound completely well. If there is any form of transient edge attached to the sound and from memory as I used to own a real 808 then the kick sound can be dialled up with some snap at the start then it is not just a gated sinewave at all, there is more going on. But I sort of agree with Dave too in that it is most often just a low freq sound. I think there are far more interesting kick sounds than a standard 808 kick but the reality is with that comes the need to keep an eye on processing them a bit more too. I was watching an interesting video over on the Presonus forum showing two producer dudes reworking a classic hit inside Studio One. One of the things I generally got from watching that was the way they set up their kick sounds. Firstly there was more than one kick sound and a good idea is to put multiple kicks inside a folder track even inside the drum folder track to keep things neat. They had Fab Filter EQ's on each kick and were not afraid to use them to shape the low end of the sound they were after not just on individual kicks but on the kick buss too which they were routed to. On the individual kicks it was often just a little low end shelving to bring things back into a line a bit. On the buss they were not afraid to use interesting or even radical EQ to achieve their aims. I think that is one of the good things about using sampled kicks is you can be quite creative with the EQ and not be afraid to use it. One thing I really got watching this video too was the lovely low level they were working at all the time. Low digital levels inside Studio One I mean but healthy SPL levels in the room. They were no where near 0dB FS at any stage. Even by the time whole drum mixes were present on drumbuses, the main outs were still clear and had plenty of room to bring all the other stuff in. By the time they had it all in there the main outs were just sitting right on the ref level rms wise that is. Peaks still well shy of 0dB FS. Sensible. Hearing digital at its best. I know what you mean about how some machines deliver the right sounding kick out of the box. Things like 808 and 909 and 707 etc They all did. But think of it as these days there are many more options in terms of kick sounds and then there are the millions of combinations of layering them up as well. It is only natural that in some case the EQ's might get a little out of control and might need taming in right at the source. No harm in getting things sounding great at the source. It is still good advice even for all electronic productions. Try using HPF on the low end of the kick sound and you also have slope options as well. You might try using a slow slope eg 6 dB/Oct and try moving the cutoff freq higher up, that way you will tame the low end of a kick sound rather slowly or smoothly. But then again try a very steep slope eg 48 dB/Oct and try setting the cutoff quite lowish so as to let most of the right energy through and remove unwanted deep sub type stuff. Both are equal and effective approaches to use of a HPF. Finding the right approach for your kick sound is the key. Sometimes just plain shelving works better too. And if you are layering kicks try to use different sounds to form the overall kick sound. eg some low end thump combined with mid range pop and some top end transient. Try balancing those elemenets too so as to get the right amount of everything in your total kick sound. That is the very cool thing about layered kick sounds. While ALL the music is playing too you can go back in and tweak the layers to suit the music a little more. Use a small mono speaker down at low volume too to give the real info about your overall balance and how well the kick still stands up, even with all the bottom end of your mix out of the equation. You still need some mid range and top end energy to convey the kick parts while in poor low end listening environments. The small speaker will stop you from using kicks that are too thumpy and only work with big low end systems.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/04/14 18:59:34
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/14 22:10:21
(permalink)
Thanks for all the feedback so far. I thought I would make an example of what I am talking about here. https://soundcloud.com/onlyroomforrobots/demo2 The kick I feel fit nicely in the mix, but at the end of the clip, I left only the drums, and that's when the kick I feel becomes a bit overbearing. I know when I hear professional music and the music cuts out, that the drums don't have this effect. Does anyone else hear what I am talking about? Thanks, Adam
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 00:53:26
(permalink)
That music is short and sweet. Actually listening to that I get the feeling the drum machine sounds need to be a bit lighter and more delicate. (kick especially) In some ways you have created a kick that does not fit that groove so well and is not such a great sound anyway. It is a bit too strong in certain areas. I would be thinking of rebuilding the kick from scratch and making it still positive and present but a little more delicate in the process if you get what I mean.
The kick needs more interest right at the start of the sound (ie transient) and less going on in the meat of the sound. When you do that you will have the right balance of kick transient to the rest of the kick sound.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 01:01:08
(permalink)
Oh I just threw that together in like 3 minutes, just to get the idea across of what my trouble is :)
I know the drum sounds were a bit harsh in the mix, BUT the kick was sooo much more punchy when solo. I was wondering what the normal process would be to make it sound "constant" throughout the pieces.
|
Danny Danzi
Moderator
- Total Posts : 5810
- Joined: 2006/10/05 13:42:39
- Location: DanziLand, NJ
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 01:51:04
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby aglewis723 2014/04/15 10:26:08
I think your problem is automation, Adam...or the lack thereof. Jonesey told you the right info from the beginning in my opinion. When you eq something when solo'd up, you get a much different outcome once you add all the other instrumentation in. To me, that mix you posted up didn't seem bad at all. Maybe I'm just getting to be less of a stickler these days and only look for problem areas, but I had no problems with that mix until the end when the drums were alone.
Now, what I'd do if I were you? I'd automate on anything that needs to be alone on its own. If that song had the drums come in by themselves, I'd high pass that kick so that it wouldn't rumble as much by itself. I do this for every instrument in my mix when it makes a solo appearance. If a guitar sound of mine is all by itself to start a song, the eq will look one way. Once the song starts, the eq changes via automation so that the guitar sound fits with the mix and doesn't FIGHT with the mix.
As far as your comment about the company's making kicks/drums that work right out of the box.....I believe they have given people just that. Half of the mixes you hear on Youtube are mixes where people just used drum modules with little tweaks. If most of them had to mic up and record a real drum kit, they would fail miserably because the drum sounds of today are so good, no one can really totally fail by using one unless they ruin the sound with excessive compression or eq.
I too high pass just about every kick I have ever used UNLESS the kick just simply doesn't need it. I'm not one that messes with an eq extensively if the sound doesn't call for it. Especially when using these drum sounds of today. To me, they are SOO good coming out of the box, most home studio hobby guys would be lost if they had to actually dial in a real drum that wasn't recorded so good. See that's the thing...with these newer modules, the recordings of the samples are so good, the fail factor is so low, a person fails if they ruin the sound due to being clueless.
This is why programs like EZDrummer have done so well. They sound good and are affordable. BUT, because of those two things....everyone has the same/similar drum sound and they really haven't learned a thing about recording. Now you can even buy the kits people have assembled. How long before there's an automated bot that listens to your voice and creates the exact kit and sound you want? LOL!
The same for drum machine type sounds in my opinion. They already have a voice that is all their own. You either high pass it, or play around with the low end and then mess with some transient attack. If you recorded a real drum, you'd find that if you didn't get the recording right, you'd end up messing with more than just a high pass. You'd be messing with all the stuff in between as well and let me tell you, it's not very fun. These sounds we have today are a breeze to work with in my opinion. With little to no tweaking, it makes people sound like they are seasoned pro's. Heck, if you're successful with a drum module on a song, you can save all your settings and it's there for you every time. This won't work on a real kit because even if you took pictures of your mic placement and taped all your stands while writing everything down, tomorrow when you mic up again, it will sound different. So no template of eq's or compression will work right out of the box. But on these modules and drum machine sounds....brother, we have the world in our hands. :)
Just do the automation thing if you want something to play by itself, and then change the eq curve for when the instrument plays in a mix. This is how everyone else is doing it also. They don't just come up with one eq sound and go with it....they may have 3 different eq's for an instrument depending on what may be going on. But for sure, any time an instrument is by itself, it's a good idea to eq it for that "all alone sound". :) Good luck.
-Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 09:16:37
(permalink)
Jeff, I did mis-speak. It's technically not a gated sinewave oscillator, it was a damped (low-Q) sinewave oscillator. I did not own an 808, but I owned two other Roland drum machines back in the day that were very similar. In those days I made a point of acquiring service manuals and schematics for every piece of gear I had. I distinctly remember studying the schematic and noting how simple (but clever) the circuitry was. Here's a modern equivalent (the 808 used discrete transistors rather than op-amps): 
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 10:28:33
(permalink)
Jeff Evans
That music is short and sweet. Actually listening to that I get the feeling the drum machine sounds need to be a bit lighter and more delicate. (kick especially) In some ways you have created a kick that does not fit that groove so well and is not such a great sound anyway. It is a bit too strong in certain areas. I would be thinking of rebuilding the kick from scratch and making it still positive and present but a little more delicate in the process if you get what I mean.
The kick needs more interest right at the start of the sound (ie transient) and less going on in the meat of the sound. When you do that you will have the right balance of kick transient to the rest of the kick sound.
Jeff, That's actually one of my biggest problems. I don't know how to make the drum sound more light and gentle. This is my biggest gripe with synth drum so far! How would you go about it?
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 10:30:41
(permalink)
Danny Danzi
I think your problem is automation, Adam...or the lack thereof. Jonesey told you the right info from the beginning in my opinion. When you eq something when solo'd up, you get a much different outcome once you add all the other instrumentation in. To me, that mix you posted up didn't seem bad at all. Maybe I'm just getting to be less of a stickler these days and only look for problem areas, but I had no problems with that mix until the end when the drums were alone.
Now, what I'd do if I were you? I'd automate on anything that needs to be alone on its own. If that song had the drums come in by themselves, I'd high pass that kick so that it wouldn't rumble as much by itself. I do this for every instrument in my mix when it makes a solo appearance. If a guitar sound of mine is all by itself to start a song, the eq will look one way. Once the song starts, the eq changes via automation so that the guitar sound fits with the mix and doesn't FIGHT with the mix.
As far as your comment about the company's making kicks/drums that work right out of the box.....I believe they have given people just that. Half of the mixes you hear on Youtube are mixes where people just used drum modules with little tweaks. If most of them had to mic up and record a real drum kit, they would fail miserably because the drum sounds of today are so good, no one can really totally fail by using one unless they ruin the sound with excessive compression or eq.
I too high pass just about every kick I have ever used UNLESS the kick just simply doesn't need it. I'm not one that messes with an eq extensively if the sound doesn't call for it. Especially when using these drum sounds of today. To me, they are SOO good coming out of the box, most home studio hobby guys would be lost if they had to actually dial in a real drum that wasn't recorded so good. See that's the thing...with these newer modules, the recordings of the samples are so good, the fail factor is so low, a person fails if they ruin the sound due to being clueless.
This is why programs like EZDrummer have done so well. They sound good and are affordable. BUT, because of those two things....everyone has the same/similar drum sound and they really haven't learned a thing about recording. Now you can even buy the kits people have assembled. How long before there's an automated bot that listens to your voice and creates the exact kit and sound you want? LOL!
The same for drum machine type sounds in my opinion. They already have a voice that is all their own. You either high pass it, or play around with the low end and then mess with some transient attack. If you recorded a real drum, you'd find that if you didn't get the recording right, you'd end up messing with more than just a high pass. You'd be messing with all the stuff in between as well and let me tell you, it's not very fun. These sounds we have today are a breeze to work with in my opinion. With little to no tweaking, it makes people sound like they are seasoned pro's. Heck, if you're successful with a drum module on a song, you can save all your settings and it's there for you every time. This won't work on a real kit because even if you took pictures of your mic placement and taped all your stands while writing everything down, tomorrow when you mic up again, it will sound different. So no template of eq's or compression will work right out of the box. But on these modules and drum machine sounds....brother, we have the world in our hands. :)
Just do the automation thing if you want something to play by itself, and then change the eq curve for when the instrument plays in a mix. This is how everyone else is doing it also. They don't just come up with one eq sound and go with it....they may have 3 different eq's for an instrument depending on what may be going on. But for sure, any time an instrument is by itself, it's a good idea to eq it for that "all alone sound". :) Good luck.
-Danny
Danny, Thanks for the reply man. I will look into automating the EQ as the song plays. I think maybe I was under the wrong impression. I mean when you see a band live and a drum solo starts, i don't think they are turning down the low frequencies of the kick on the fly. I guess that's where I was coming from.
|
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8424
- Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 12:08:10
(permalink)
Just to add, The 808 had a "tone" and "decay" on a all of the main sounds including the kick. So any given sample would not represent the almost infinite possibilities the original had. This is why so many people seek them out and will settle for no less.
I still have a Roland 505, it looks like hell and the face plate is all gooey from the labels that fell off 20 years ago. I had this diagram of how to re-wire it so each sound could have it's own output. It was the low end version of the 808 but to me the sounds are very similar.
Some one man band history:
It used a cassette tape data back up system like Amiga did. It would only hold 4 or 5 songs in memory. You then "recorded" the memory dump to a cassette. Program another 4 songs etc. I would be able to play these 4 songs per set that had the full song patterns. The rest you were stuck with only one pattern or manually change it. During the set break you would dump the tape with the next 4 songs to the machine and cross your fingers that it worked. When the Atari came out with a MIDI port I was one of the first in line with the idea to drive the 505. When I found out I could also add bass lines! All I can say is we are spoiled rotten these days and no one should complain.
|
Danny Danzi
Moderator
- Total Posts : 5810
- Joined: 2006/10/05 13:42:39
- Location: DanziLand, NJ
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 15:48:29
(permalink)
aglewis723
Danny Danzi
I think your problem is automation, Adam...or the lack thereof. Jonesey told you the right info from the beginning in my opinion. When you eq something when solo'd up, you get a much different outcome once you add all the other instrumentation in. To me, that mix you posted up didn't seem bad at all. Maybe I'm just getting to be less of a stickler these days and only look for problem areas, but I had no problems with that mix until the end when the drums were alone.
Now, what I'd do if I were you? I'd automate on anything that needs to be alone on its own. If that song had the drums come in by themselves, I'd high pass that kick so that it wouldn't rumble as much by itself. I do this for every instrument in my mix when it makes a solo appearance. If a guitar sound of mine is all by itself to start a song, the eq will look one way. Once the song starts, the eq changes via automation so that the guitar sound fits with the mix and doesn't FIGHT with the mix.
As far as your comment about the company's making kicks/drums that work right out of the box.....I believe they have given people just that. Half of the mixes you hear on Youtube are mixes where people just used drum modules with little tweaks. If most of them had to mic up and record a real drum kit, they would fail miserably because the drum sounds of today are so good, no one can really totally fail by using one unless they ruin the sound with excessive compression or eq.
I too high pass just about every kick I have ever used UNLESS the kick just simply doesn't need it. I'm not one that messes with an eq extensively if the sound doesn't call for it. Especially when using these drum sounds of today. To me, they are SOO good coming out of the box, most home studio hobby guys would be lost if they had to actually dial in a real drum that wasn't recorded so good. See that's the thing...with these newer modules, the recordings of the samples are so good, the fail factor is so low, a person fails if they ruin the sound due to being clueless.
This is why programs like EZDrummer have done so well. They sound good and are affordable. BUT, because of those two things....everyone has the same/similar drum sound and they really haven't learned a thing about recording. Now you can even buy the kits people have assembled. How long before there's an automated bot that listens to your voice and creates the exact kit and sound you want? LOL!
The same for drum machine type sounds in my opinion. They already have a voice that is all their own. You either high pass it, or play around with the low end and then mess with some transient attack. If you recorded a real drum, you'd find that if you didn't get the recording right, you'd end up messing with more than just a high pass. You'd be messing with all the stuff in between as well and let me tell you, it's not very fun. These sounds we have today are a breeze to work with in my opinion. With little to no tweaking, it makes people sound like they are seasoned pro's. Heck, if you're successful with a drum module on a song, you can save all your settings and it's there for you every time. This won't work on a real kit because even if you took pictures of your mic placement and taped all your stands while writing everything down, tomorrow when you mic up again, it will sound different. So no template of eq's or compression will work right out of the box. But on these modules and drum machine sounds....brother, we have the world in our hands. :)
Just do the automation thing if you want something to play by itself, and then change the eq curve for when the instrument plays in a mix. This is how everyone else is doing it also. They don't just come up with one eq sound and go with it....they may have 3 different eq's for an instrument depending on what may be going on. But for sure, any time an instrument is by itself, it's a good idea to eq it for that "all alone sound". :) Good luck.
-Danny
Danny,
Thanks for the reply man. I will look into automating the EQ as the song plays. I think maybe I was under the wrong impression. I mean when you see a band live and a drum solo starts, i don't think they are turning down the low frequencies of the kick on the fly. I guess that's where I was coming from.
I'm with ya. The difference with live is....it's a different type of fidelity. It's way more forgiving due to the room, the crowd noise and everything else that goes on with a live presentation. And, most live shows (even in my little band) we are using automated consoles. Actually Adam, the pro bands DO make eq changes for instruments that are all alone. Especially with the automation control we have with these newer live consoles. For example, when I do my solo by myself in my set, *I* eq'd my tone from the console and saved it months ago. I use the same mic's and put them on the same spots for my cabs all the time. I have things marked...so I just grab the light in my cell phone and mic the cabs. But the sound the sound man gives me for my band sound is different than my sound when I do a solo all by myself. I have a little more low end and a little more mids when I'm doing my all alone solo. I'm also relying on my own effects for that so all the effects on the board for me are dead. But to really answer the question as to whether or not people are being anal to do what I'm saying....I would say it depends on the sound. If we have a kick drum that needs to be thinned out live because the bass guitar has a lot of low end in it, you better believe they will add more low end girth to the kick if the drummer does a solo or has a spot where the drums may be on their own. It would be senseless NOT to enhance when needed, know what I mean? See, when we mix, the hardest thing is making all the instruments communicate with each other to form the music bed. So we definitely need sounds that work well with each other. However, when an instruments needs to shine on its own, there really isn't anything special that needs to be done other than "does it sound good or doesn't it?" When things are by themselves, they are not competing with the others. So you can add more lows, more effects or even more mids. But when the band comes back in, those things need to be adjusted. With one touch of a button on say a Behringer X32 or something, the eq on whatever you touched instantly goes back to where it was in the band mix. I'd actually be upset if my sound man just left everything alone and didn't enhance things to make them come to life when they play all alone. At the end of the day, that is the sound man's job. Any sound man that just sets it and forgets it isn't a sound man...he's just a feedback controller and even that is being generous. :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 17:39:20
(permalink)
Well Adam for me I would be just going through some kicks again and trying to find firstly one that satisified what I was looking for. It might be hard to describe it. A nice rounded sound with a little transient edge at the start to give it some rhythmical impact. A kick that has some sort of delicate quality about it to match the rest of the drum machine sound and the overall general quality of the laid backness of the tune itself. If I was close I would maybe layer two sounds then to get the total sound I was looking for. Maybe the transient edge could be one sound and the rounded sustained part a second sound. That would be my approach I think.
One thing I do know compared to the old days and that is now there are ten million kicks to choose from whereas back then I only had a few. The Roland TR808 sounds, Linn drum or Oberheim DMX drum machine and maybe that was about it for me. I just worked with what I had and got into more EQ things to get the sound I was after. But keep looking through your library of kick sounds because the perfect kick is probably in there and you have just not found it yet!
I think if you have a lot of single shot drum sounds it is important to have them organised well into a library and browser situation so you can easily get at them and hear them effeciently.
Danny has nailed it in terms of changing up things if a part or sound suddenly becomes exposed for whatever reason. Then automation is your friend here as it means you can just alter things in the areas of the tune where things might get exposed. For example a solo acoustic guitar intro might have a little more low end in the sound but when the band comes in that acoustic may need its HPF activated a little more etc.. Whatever you do automation wise the trick is to do it silently so the listener does not know what you have done. It might just be a simple level change which often works well or a HPF cutoff frequency sliding around at the required point.
I do it quite a bit in bigger productions. Change the bass tone for example from intros, verses and choruses etc. It can be slight but very effective. It all adds to the drama!
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
aglewis723
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 216
- Joined: 2013/01/14 14:28:02
- Location: New Jersey
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 18:13:46
(permalink)
Thank you ALL so much for your help on this. I really picked up a lot of useful knowledge here. I am trying to not use Samples, but more drum synthesis.... maybe my art of synthesis in general is lacking (for now), but yes I know what you mean. A lot of my tunes are calm/chill (that was just a sample i threw together in 2 minutes as an example).
Again - thanks so much to everyone!
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 22:14:46
(permalink)
Some of the best electronic drum sounds I have are from the "Driven Machine Drums" sample pack, which is unfortunately now sold out (he only sold a limited number). They were all lovingly sampled from classic drum machines and processed to sound great out of the box (and they really do). You can read about them and listen to some demos here. http://www.drivenmachinedrums.com/ I know it sounds like BS but these samples just immediately sound great when I load them into Battery or Geist. Especially the kicks. I know what you mean about electronic kicks being too boomy - I've never found that with these. Granted there are some 'chest beaters' in there if that's what you want, but there are also some excellent snappy kicks in there as well and I virtually never have to do anything with 'em, they just fit right in the mix. The guy did offer some free 909 samples on his Facebook page a while ago, you can download them here: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?qaj7brm49j58awx He also offered another small collection of free electronic drum samples here: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?eh36o4st2k69un8 Might be worth checking out. They'll either work for you or they won't. Personally I have to high pass the crap out of a lot of "quality" commercial drum and bass samples, Trilian basses for example have loads of boominess in them. I guess the idea being it's there if you want it, and it's no big deal to dial it down if you don't.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
Fog
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 12302
- Joined: 2008/02/27 21:53:35
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/15 22:55:28
(permalink)
the 808 kick pitched down in a sampler years ago was used to make sub bass in some hardcore and jungle tunes... or processed again after that.
but it's a case of layering 2 kicks a lot now.. the lower element of say an 808 but an acoustic drum has the higher range better sorted.. not used battery in a while BUT you could link 2 pads IRC.. so you have the low-kick and the hi-kick to trigger together and just trim the fat off each so they don't clash in the middle.. so use "as is" or record out and bring back in as one drum..
computer music did something with noisa ages ago, and the bloke was doing the same thing.. using the low end off the drum machine kick + the slightly weaker accoustic kick to replace the high end..have a lot of sample libs that have decent kicks , snares..
was funny years ago, someone talking to me about house and I was making some with a friend.. using both the 808 and 909 , and only elements of each .. ah you used an 808.. no mention of the 909 ;-)
vengeance do nice libs for single hits , but don't own any .. maybe I do as included product.. dunno.. but it's all trim-able, but the extra bit of "fat" is always handy when side chaining.. although I saw a video with jon b and he just uses a low end sound to force the gap instead.
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Electronic Kick Drum Sounds.... (is it just me?)
2014/04/16 07:23:43
(permalink)
If you're after electronic drum sounds and samples aren't providing what you want then maybe it's time to switch to a true drum synthesiser rather than a sample player.
If you want to stay in software, Waldorf Attack is pretty good and allows full control over pretty much every parameter and Nepheton/Drumazon do the 808/909 thing very well. It's also possible to programme a lot of electronic percussion using the synths Sonar comes with. Sound on Sound did a useful article on drum synthesis some time ago in their synth basics series. Google should find you the relevant article(s).
Sonar's percussion strip can also radically transform drum sounds using it's attack and decay tansient controllers.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|