Event List Behavior

Always wondered why this happens. Maybe someone can tell me, before this forum dies! Sometimes when I look at volumes that I have put in the Event List, they have repositioned themselves, so that the volume event I originally put in at 98.01.00, has now "moved", such that it now occurs after the first note of that measure, instead of before it, where it belongs. You can't make it be before the note; you have to delete it, and put in a new CC event. It may have to do with having deleted notes, or copying them to that track. Just wondering if anyone else has ever noticed this, and figured out how to make it not happen. Not a big deal, but if there's a fix it would be great to know. I'm one of those who plan to keep using Sonar as long as possible. In my case, 8.5 Studio.

I use it. But then I have an unusal work flow. On the other hand, I never use PRV. Just Event, staff, console and track. It works for me. Guess this will be one that doesn't get answered. No big deal. I'm actually surprised I even got one response.

jyoung60
I actually use Event List for most of my editing as well, and PVR as a supplement for certain things.  Unfortunately I've never experienced shifting volumes, so I can't give any advice.  But at least you know you're not alone as an Event List user.

Thanks, it's nice to be validated, instead of hearing something like "nobody uses that." Makes me fee like I'm nobody.
 
To clarify, it's not that volumes are shifting. It's the actual controller event that gets shifted. It's position in the event list actually changes. It should be ahead of all the notes in the measure, so the volume (or other) change can affect all notes. If it gets shifted to being after the first note, then that note does not get the volume change. It does seem to happen as a result of moving notes around. Maybe I just work in a way that was not expected by the developers, so they didn't allow for this. I may be the only person to have this work flow. It's not a big deal, I don't know why I even bothered to bring it up.

I, too, frequently use the event list whenever I need to be precise with the placement of events. I suspect a lot of old-school MIDI guys routinely do this. Sometimes it's just more convenient than using the PRV.
 
However, I am accustomed to placing events a tick or two ahead when I need to force the order of execution. Nothing happens simultaneously in software, and there is no such thing as a truly "continuous" controller, so even if several events are placed at exactly the same timestamp, there's no guarantee as to what order they'll actually be processed.
 
Part of it may also be due to quantization of CC and MIDI events, and I would not be surprised if notes take priority over continuous controllers, which can usually be off a little without audible repercussions.
 
There's also the consideration of how much time it takes a synthesizer to respond to a CC event or keyswitch. I guess it's a habit I got into working with outboard synths, but it's only logical that soft synths need some time to process input too. Another reason to position controller events well ahead of the point where you need them to take effect.
 

I've only used Sonar and Reaper, their lists are very similar. Reaper is easier on the eyes. Sonar is more conveneient in some ways. But they do the same things.

Good point, Konrad. I just assumed that if the CC event  was after the first note (even though displaying the same time), it would therefore not affect that note. Here's an example of what I'm talking about, in simplified form:
 
C#        
Volume change, CC11=90     
F                   (Time=49.01.00  for all) 
Bb
etc
 
The CC event, which used to be before all notes, is now positioned after the first note, after I did something, like copy/paste or drag & drop. I was assuming that it did not affect the first note (C#). but you seem to be saying that it does not matter, as long as the CC event has the same time value. 
 
I do change the timing of CC events when this occurs, putting it in the previous measure, if blank. If I can't do that, I've been deleting the event and reinserting it.
 
I can try ignoring these when they occur, and try to see if it makes a difference.
 

Maybe I'm just being obsessive.

As I said, I hope you don't think I was bashing you for using it, I was just saying how most people probably don't even know it's there and only use PRV.  I'm just saying how crude Sonars event list is compaired to what I had in Dr T on the Atari in 1984.   
The event list on Dr T had full editing functions, you could perform just about everything including quantize, thin controller data and on and on. 
 
And I find it odd that things like Program change are not there as I'm forever having issues with patchs on download files. 

The volume event is meant to modify everything that is already playing on that channel at that moment, not just the notes that follow. For a synth on the end of a MIDI cable playing a patch with a very sharp attack, followed by an extreme volume change, it is theoretically possible hear a glitch at the beginning of the first note. Then again, extreme volume changes are already a glitch. On a midi cable, the events can arrive up to a millisecond apart. So depending on the order they are sent, there could be some audio consequence. It's a lot less likely identically timestamped events would cause a problem in a softsynth.
 
I don't think we have any control over the exact order except by giving them separate time stamps. But there's an experiment for you. Using a patch that has a very sharp attack, throw in an big volume change one MIDI tick later versus one tick earlier and see if you can hear something wrong. For any patch that doesn't have a fast attack, it's very unlikely to hear any difference.

Well I hope those of us who continue to use Sonar can stay in one place. Looks like there are 2 new forums with I think Bapu's looking promising. I'm guilty of joining both but that was weeks ago when the S H The Fan  I hope I book marked them. 
Then the other half will be spread across the internet with many it seems at the Presonus forum. I already belong to Steinberg forum for years now because of Wave Lab and compared to this one it's a cold dead duck. I waited 3 days for a reply to a simple question and only got one answer. I gave up and have never returned. 
There's also a pathetic little sub forum on Gear slutz with about a once a week post. 
This forum is visibly dying. 
First there are no new members and no more yapping about the latest updates, a big part of life here in the past. 

michael diemer
I agree about the Steinberg forum. Nowhere near as helpful as this place. I have also noticed that the activity here is starting to die down. After the announcement, people were really circling the wagons. Now, with folks moving on, you can see the difference. I was spending like an hour here after the announcement, now i't more like 20 minutes. Sad. This has always been my favorite forum, even during my elopement with Reaper. (I'm now re-engaging with Studio 8.5. Producer was messed up for some reason, maybe a bad install disc).

I can relate to this on a couple levels.  Mostly the level where I was the admin for a software forum in the early 2000s (Bearshare), and it was a jumpin' place for 5 years until the company shut down.  So I opened a refugee forum for all the Bearshare users, called Technutopia.  That place ran for almost 12 years, but the momentum died out in the first few because the Bearshare users moved on to other softwares, and the purpose of my forum was lost.
 
So yeah, here we go again. A great place for support and to make friends, and *poof* ... ... ...