samson7842
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 14:32:57
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It doesn't matter how music is made. It's the end result that counts. Dylan isn't that great of a musician or singer. But, he created master pieces. I know that and I'm not even a fan.
Creating music should always be mainly about a person's creativity and not the methods he or she employs to craft a song.
Lateef Murdock Gear:Dell XPS 8700 i7-4770 3.9 GHz 24 GB Dual Channel DDR3 160MHZ 4DIMMs Windows 10 64bit Cakewalk (CxB) Sonar Platinum Studio One 4 Komplete 9 Ultimate Maschine 2.7 MK3 Edirol PCR 500 Roland A-300 Pro Steinberg Virtual Guitarist 2 Virtual Guitarist Silk Virtual Guitarist Amber Virtual Guitarist Iron Steinberg UR22 Waves Gold Melodyne 4 Studio Various other fiddly bits
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bapu
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 14:53:28
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bapu
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 14:54:28
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yorolpal
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 15:09:30
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Ditto, Bapu, ol pal...to both Bubba and Lateef.
However, I don't think any rational person could muster much of an argument that compositions created using "loops" and one shot samples are not "music" or "musical". That way lies maddness. The problem arises when one who does this seeks to self ascribe to themselves an appellation which is both disingenuous and misleading...i.e. calling themselves "a musician". Again, the dictionary is a ready and able arbiter of such misappropriation. "A collage maker"...yes, certainly. An "artist" perhaps. Brilliant, even...it's very possible. But assembling what others have composed and performed is not musicianship by any definition. Valid, wonderful, interesting and/or funkalisciously groovy tho it may be. Words, hence labels, still have meaning. And they carry no shame, except when self-servingly misused.
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bapu
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 15:12:18
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Right On Brother MyOlPal.
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bapu
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 15:13:21
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Now......
Can we go flog these interlopers?
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kson
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 15:24:32
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UbiquitousBubba
[opinion]
Evaluating musicians as good or bad is, in part, a subjective exercise. It is one thing to critique a musicians technical capability. Whenever we try to place a value on the artistic or creative capabilities of a musician, our own bias comes into play.
Good artists are often not the popular ones. Popular artists are sometimes less skilled, less original, and/or less gifted than those artists who spend a lifetime in anonymity. How should we respond to this? We could rant ineffectively against a world that does not hold our personal values as its own. On the other hand, we could try embracing these new "artists" and use the tools to help them learn to enjoy and appreciate music. Perhaps some would then be interested in learning to play an instrument and/or music theory.
It wasn't that long ago when "real" musicians sneered derisively at young punks with their "rock and roll" music. Keyboardists looked down on guitarists as if they were faux musicians. Everyone looked down on drummers as thugs who could only knew how to hit things and count to four. Singers looked down on rappers as vocalists who couldn't sing.
Can someone "create" music with a tool such as BIAB? Is it music if it's built on loops? If I record a MIDI keyboard part and then edit the mistakes out, correct the timing, and speed it back up to tempo, am I a musician or a programmer? Many people here may consider such things to be amaturish, unprofessional, or unskilled. Maybe the real artistry is in the mind of the artist - taking an idea, using some tools/instruments to drag it into reality, and then putting it all together to make it sound the way it did in their head.
[/opinion]
Good point but slightly off base. I'm not comparing keys, guitar, drums. Nor am I comparing rap, country, rock n roll, etc. If YOU record a keyboard part and edit it, that is a far cry from taking a loop/program and editing it and calling it your own. I think P.Ditty (or whatever he calls himself these days), is a great businessman but poor artist. He built an empire off of other's tunes. When I play a cover tune my way, it's still a cover. It was built on someone else's feelings or thoughts. Art is borne of emotion and experience. A program has neither. That's it. I never want to see technology replace musicianship.
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 16:13:58
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I understand your point and appreciate your view. I don't want to see computer programs create the music, either. That's why I choose not to use loops or similar tools in my own compositions.
On a similar note, we all know that human musicians (especially soulless producers affiliated with major record labels) sometimes create dull, formulaic music that might as well have come from a machine. My own personal gripe is against manufactured "bands" that the labels crank out from their hit factory. (Especially if the "band" consists of a rapper, 3-5 dancers, and a pre-recorded music track. That's my bias coming through.)
In the same way that I thought it was wrong when rappers "stole" music they didn't play and then claimed it as their own (yes, I'm looking at you, M.C. Hammer), I agree with you that having a program create a riff or a song and then claiming it as your own work of art is unethical. If, instead, people use this software to play with music and develop an interest in it, I'm okay with that.
In other art forms, people have struggled with some of the same issues. I've known artists who have wrestled with the question of whether or not computer generated images can be published by an artist as their creation. (The easy answer there is, Yes. In the art world, paint spilled on a canvas by a pig is considered "art", so anything goes.)
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ohgrant
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 19:54:44
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UbiquitousBubba
[opinion]
Evaluating musicians as good or bad is, in part, a subjective exercise. It is one thing to critique a musicians technical capability. Whenever we try to place a value on the artistic or creative capabilities of a musician, our own bias comes into play.
Good artists are often not the popular ones. Popular artists are sometimes less skilled, less original, and/or less gifted than those artists who spend a lifetime in anonymity. How should we respond to this? We could rant ineffectively against a world that does not hold our personal values as its own. On the other hand, we could try embracing these new "artists" and use the tools to help them learn to enjoy and appreciate music. Perhaps some would then be interested in learning to play an instrument and/or music theory.
It wasn't that long ago when "real" musicians sneered derisively at young punks with their "rock and roll" music. Keyboardists looked down on guitarists as if they were faux musicians. Everyone looked down on drummers as thugs who could only knew how to hit things and count to four. Singers looked down on rappers as vocalists who couldn't sing.
Can someone "create" music with a tool such as BIAB? Is it music if it's built on loops? If I record a MIDI keyboard part and then edit the mistakes out, correct the timing, and speed it back up to tempo, am I a musician or a programmer? Many people here may consider such things to be amaturish, unprofessional, or unskilled. Maybe the real artistry is in the mind of the artist - taking an idea, using some tools/instruments to drag it into reality, and then putting it all together to make it sound the way it did in their head.
[/opinion]
An excellent and very much to the point post from my perspective. Did the violinist want to be replaced by a softsynth? Did the drummer want to be replaced by the robot in Jamstix2&3 Does the band like sitting out while BITB does all the work? I remember a few years back, Microsoft had a stab at something like that and there was similar hype. I think the unfortunate reality is that genie is already out of the bottle and possibly making it's way into commercials already . No one wants to loose their job to automation or computers but we're powerless to stop it.
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kson
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 21:08:27
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ohgrant
UbiquitousBubba
[opinion]
Evaluating musicians as good or bad is, in part, a subjective exercise. It is one thing to critique a musicians technical capability. Whenever we try to place a value on the artistic or creative capabilities of a musician, our own bias comes into play.
Good artists are often not the popular ones. Popular artists are sometimes less skilled, less original, and/or less gifted than those artists who spend a lifetime in anonymity. How should we respond to this? We could rant ineffectively against a world that does not hold our personal values as its own. On the other hand, we could try embracing these new "artists" and use the tools to help them learn to enjoy and appreciate music. Perhaps some would then be interested in learning to play an instrument and/or music theory.
It wasn't that long ago when "real" musicians sneered derisively at young punks with their "rock and roll" music. Keyboardists looked down on guitarists as if they were faux musicians. Everyone looked down on drummers as thugs who could only knew how to hit things and count to four. Singers looked down on rappers as vocalists who couldn't sing.
Can someone "create" music with a tool such as BIAB? Is it music if it's built on loops? If I record a MIDI keyboard part and then edit the mistakes out, correct the timing, and speed it back up to tempo, am I a musician or a programmer? Many people here may consider such things to be amaturish, unprofessional, or unskilled. Maybe the real artistry is in the mind of the artist - taking an idea, using some tools/instruments to drag it into reality, and then putting it all together to make it sound the way it did in their head.
[/opinion]
An excellent and very much to the point post from my perspective. Did the violinist want to be replaced by a softsynth? Did the drummer want to be replaced by the robot in Jamstix2&3 Does the band like sitting out while BITB does all the work? I remember a few years back, Microsoft had a stab at something like that and there was similar hype. I think the unfortunate reality is that genie is already out of the bottle and possibly making it's way into commercials already . No one wants to loose their job to automation or computers but we're powerless to stop it.
" but we're powerless to stop it" - I think that's where my frustration is setting in. I only see it worsening. 
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ohgrant
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 21:57:18
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Me too :( .......Beethoven in a box?
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Rain
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 22:32:43
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Well, look at it this way...
Every one can make "music" nowadays. Just like every one can make a video and get it on youtube. Every one can write - even if they can't spell - and "publish" it. Every one has an opinion that they like to share, even if they themselves just borrowed it. Every one can be botox'd and photoshop'd and look like who they aren't.
Of course, it often pisses me off. But in the end, I'm doing music for myself, primarily, because, that's who I am. I just write, I can't help it. And anyway, I've come to the conclusion that the majority of the people aren't interested in music - the listeners I mean. They like fame, glamour, notoriety.
For me it's about music, so, whatever...
I'm just hoping that they'll eventually completely give up on music (making it and listening to it) as an out-fashionned mean to obtain fame and attention. There's already so little substance to what they listen and what they play. Music is just incidental to them - just give them their 15 minutes of fame already.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 22:52:32
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How far do you want to take that argument that only musicians playing an instrument should make music...?
Do you use a synth? That could be termed cheating too. If you don't play a trumpet but use a synth to create a trumpet track.... is that cheating?
If someone uses a program like Ujam, don't they have to have the idea and inspiration in the first place to create it? Programs like these open new doors to musicians and non-musicians as well to the wonderful world of making original music.
So with a computer and some software, anyone can make music.... how cool is that? And if you are a musician, and have talent and inspiration, wow.... the things YOU can do with that same software.
I'm in favor of all these sorts of programs whether they are computer based or Ipad, or smart phone based..... I have seen some really cool and innovative uses of these new gadgets.
Imagine if we were really purists... we'd have to walk everywhere, and not use any of the modern technology.... after all, we can't run much faster than 10 mph for long.... or fly, but I can travel to the airport in my airconditioned car at 55mph and fly across the country in a few hours..... so how far do we take this argument....?
Nahhhh, I'll take the technology and use it to my preference any day..... musician or not...just make music.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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yorolpal
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 23:20:19
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My Dear Hacker...if you use a synth you still have to know how to play it. How to perform scales and chords. How to create harmony...dissonance...rhythm...etc. If you use a synth to create a "trumpet sounding track" and you play it in then how could that be cheating?? You've mastered the discipline to learn how to form, compose and perform "music". But If I, for instance, play all your synth "trumpet" parts for you and you just copy and paste them into verses and choruses then...as far as the musical phrases that went into and made up your little "creation" you didn't do doodly squat. You just assembled them. I honestly don't understand why this is difficult to comprehend. Again, the problem arises when "collage artists" or "musical assemblers" want to (desperately it seems...although for the life of me I can't see why) refer to themselves as "musicians". Look it up in the dang dictionary. No one cares about the dang technology. Of course it should be used and enjoyed. Just use the language properly. It is no slight NOT to be refered to as a "musician".
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Rain
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 23:27:19
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yorolpal
My Dear Hacker...if you use a synth you still have to know how to play it. How to perform scales and chords. How to create harmony...dissonance...rhythm...etc. If you use a synth to create a "trumpet sounding track" and you play it in then how could that be cheating?? You've mastered the discipline to learn how to form, compose and perform "music". But If I, for instance, play all your synth "trumpet" parts for you and you just copy and paste them into verses and choruses then...as far as the musical phrases that went into and made up your little "creation" you didn't do doodly squat. You just assembled them. I honestly don't understand why this is difficult to comprehend. Again, the problem arises when "collage artists" or "musical assemblers" want to (desperately it seems...although for the life of me I can't see why) refer to themselves as "musicians". Look it up in the dang dictionary. No one cares about the dang technology. Of course it should be used and enjoyed. Just use the language properly. It is no slight NOT to be refered to as a "musician".
Because people cash in on the exception. In the aforementioned scenario, one genius might find a way to "create" something so unexpected out of existing material that he will be regarded as a creative spirit and a musician. From there on, everyone capitalizes on this and claims the title on the basis. They make a rule out of the exception.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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yorolpal
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/15 23:30:31
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 08:14:37
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To me, music is music, no matter how it's made. I might not like it, and there are genres and styles that are written, recorded, and produced with totally live players on real wood (and other material) instruments that I do not enjoy listening to. I appreciate the talent, but not the music. On the other hand I have enjoyed some music that was totally computer generated. It's still music that has been created from nothing more than an idea. Isn't that what we do? Whether it's an idea written on a guitar, or into a computer program, if the end result is music and is pleasing to at least one person..... isn't that what we all aim to do? Does it matter really, how we create our music? The computer programs I use to create music require ME to give the input as to tempo, style, and chord progressions before it will be able to do anything. ALL the inspiration for the music comes from me. I'm totally in favor of the technology we have at our disposal for creating, editing and recording music. What I do with my computer now was the stuff of dreams only a short time ago.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/06/16 08:19:34
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Ham N Egz
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 08:41:48
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Remember Microsofts ill fated SONGSMITH? HERE the video is so appropriate considering the comments about jingles and ad campaigns
post edited by musicman100 - 2011/06/16 08:44:46
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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kson
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 09:38:13
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musicman100
Remember Microsofts ill fated SONGSMITH? HERE the video is so appropriate considering the comments about jingles and ad campaigns
Watch this too... Parody. 
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Rain
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 10:41:27
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That was 10 years ago. I was writing and recording music for a documentary. 5 or 6 pieces, with a recurring main theme.
There was also one short collage sort of thing that lasted max 20 seconds. For that one, I just recycled takes and a couple of loops in Acid. It wasn't really musical, it didn't go anywhere, it just faded in and out. Nothing I was particularly proud of, but they needed a filler.
When I sent them the music, a day before the deadline, they asked if I could redo the rest of the soundtrack in that same fashion. For the next day. To be sent to them via internet (hello dial-up!). :s Of course I could. Anyone could have done that.
I guess that this is the sort of gig that no longer exist these days. they just do it themselves in Garage Band, or similar.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 10:57:07
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I dunno, I think if businesses or people needing something like this or similar done and are concerned with image, they'll go to someone or something that can produce something sharp. Listening to a piece of audio you can hear if people know what they're doing or not, and if something sounds cheap and unprofessional it will reflect that way on the business
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yorolpal
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 11:18:11
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Quite a lot of my former clients have become "musicians" these days either using tools such as garageband or just downloading ultra cheap stock library music from the web. They still do come to me tho when they either can't make it work or screw it up so bad trying to edit it they just give up. Sigh.
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Rain
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 11:36:01
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windsurfer25x
I dunno, I think if businesses or people needing something like this or similar done and are concerned with image, they'll go to someone or something that can produce something sharp. Listening to a piece of audio you can hear if people know what they're doing or not, and if something sounds cheap and unprofessional it will reflect that way on the business
It would make sense. But more and more when I turn on the TV (once a year) or watch movies, I hear stock libraries, loops and similar. These sound "good", in that, they're ready made. You only need to assemble them to get something that sounds like all the rest. No recording, no performing, no real mixing. I mean, you can put something together that will be relatively acceptable w/o much skills - music has become so incidental these days that it'd almost take an effort to come up w/ something so bad that it doesn't work. I don't think that critical listeners are a majority - far from it.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 12:43:59
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Good point, But I suppose you could also use that to your advantage if this is what you do. Encouraging potential clients to use something original so that they stand out from the over used bed tracks that sound like all the rest, in other words, Use something unique, and get noticed! Edit: If we're involved in marketing, we have to be able to at least market ourselves right? 
post edited by windsurfer25x - 2011/06/16 12:46:15
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kson
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 13:19:46
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Rain
windsurfer25x
I dunno, I think if businesses or people needing something like this or similar done and are concerned with image, they'll go to someone or something that can produce something sharp. Listening to a piece of audio you can hear if people know what they're doing or not, and if something sounds cheap and unprofessional it will reflect that way on the business
It would make sense. But more and more when I turn on the TV (once a year) or watch movies, I hear stock libraries, loops and similar.
These sound "good", in that, they're ready made. You only need to assemble them to get something that sounds like all the rest. No recording, no performing, no real mixing. I mean, you can put something together that will be relatively acceptable w/o much skills - music has become so incidental these days that it'd almost take an effort to come up w/ something so bad that it doesn't work. I don't think that critical listeners are a majority - far from it.
I hear the same when I watch shows. I can pretty much identify the library it came from. Pretty sad. I used to get paid pretty well to record jingles and scores for independent films. Even that has dried up due to the proliferation of these "ez loops". I even saw a string section software that you can program to score for you. Just dayum... 
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Starise
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 13:44:28
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A sign of our time I suppose.
Back before recording was invented you could only hear music live and so it was a real treat when you were in the presence of good musicians.
With the advent of music recording and therefore a market to sell it, things started to change. In the early days it was still considered a luxury... then later,slowly music was becoming available everywhere.
People still needed professionals to make the music but it was cheaper and easier than ever to hear it almost anywhere.Whole generations now have come to be raised on recorded music.They look at it like some kind of product to be bought as well as art.Art for sale.
Enter computers -Everything changes again. Just about anyone can get a DAW and make the equivalent of a photo shopped picture in song form. Music that has no mistakes and sounds good becomes the norm. The line between musician/producer becomes blurred because now a musician can self-produce and producers can become more like musicians with loop construction. Not just drums but entire musical phrases are sampled.
I think all of this has devalued the true musician in the dictionary sense. If a producer makes something that sounds like real music he/she is referred to as a musician. IMO if you can't make music outside a computer you are not a musician according to the meaning of what a musician is......maybe we should come up with another description for these people," computer artist arranger"
I think we have all seen the results of the aforementioned trends in music. The good musicians you see in cities who spent their lives learning to be good musicians begging in the subway for some change to play you a song. I have spent hours on some of my stuff as I'm sure many of you have as well. I don't claim to be any kind of a super musician but after spending hours on something and then posting it on FB or putting it on some music site I'll be lucky to get a few listens on it.
I have led and played contemporary church music."Tomlin", "Third Day" and such for years and never has anyone offered to pay me for my trouble. The mentality of the general public is that music is cheap,music is easy. If music were a commodity the market would be flooded and that makes the value low.
I tend to like the 70's classic rock because I was raised on that, but more importantly there were usually no computers anyhere and these guys could play.
Gen Y or is it Z now? .....has never had anything but recorded music and the occasional concert. To a musically illiterate person or someone who only likes what they hear but has no idea how it was made and might not really care,to a person who is presented with a marketing package that combines music and video with celebrity,to this person.....music is only a small part of what they buy. And they might even buy it just because it happens to be the thing to buy at the moment as perscribed by the "herd". Think Nike
I think only a musician can truly appreciate another musician in this context..... Ive been using computers for years.I have used backing tracks. I have used loops and all kinds of accompaniment sofware and keyboards. IMO the more you remove the human element from anything the less human it becomes and it always shows. The more you add the human element the better it will be. This is why I just insisted on buying a REAL bass for my tracks. We are analog beings infinitely variable who use digital technology. If we can make it do what we want it to then I say great but if we become lazy and start letting it do what we should be doing it will show in the music.
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craigb
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 21:00:40
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As I read these comments I'm reminded of a science fiction short story by Kurt Vonnegut (the Slaughterhouse Five writer). In it there's a guy who somehow can do math without a calculator and it completely astonishes everyone.
I think the parallel point is that everyone can now use a calculator to do math, but that doesn't mean they're now mathmaticians. It also doesn't mean that the answers they come up with have any less merit (as long as they're correct of course!).
Progress will always be filled with similar scenarios. Take singing for example, it used to be a required skill to project your voice to be heard. Now you have microphones and amplifiers. Is that cheating as well?
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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yorolpal
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 21:12:22
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No..because the mics and amps are not changing your voice...just AMPLIFYING it. That would be saying something like "if I sing louder is that cheating"?? While Autotune and Melodyne (et al...) are actually altering your voice and/or timbre. Or, better said, fixing your defenciencies. Gawd bless em.
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kson
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 21:17:37
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yorolpal
No..because the mics and amps are not changing your voice...just AMPLIFYING it. That would be saying something like "if I sing louder is that cheating"?? While Autotune and Melodyne (et al...) are actually altering your voice and/or timbre. Or, better said, fixing your defenciencies. Gawd bless em.
Clear over the right field wall... Take your bases.
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AT
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Re:Everytime I see articles like this I get more and more pissed...
2011/06/16 23:31:05
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Mics and preamps do more than amplify the volume. You can change the tone of the voice w/ proper (and improper) mic placement, overdriving the input/output, etc. etc.
While I don't see the purpose of instant composer programs, that comes mainly from the fact it is extremely easy to come up w/ a unique composition quickly using loop libraries. If I was producing a spot, etc that would be my prefered method. Of course, completely removing the human element has its own charm, since you don't have to worry if the drummer is late or get into arguments about the "meaning" underneath the jingle so the singer can find her moment. "What is the meaning of Fruity Loops?" or something similiar. I'm talking about a producer viewpoint of having to deal w/ "ar-tists."
Of course, those all involve choice, which is something the auto-composing programs (I suppose - I haven't used one) take away. Having grown up Presbyterian, I prefer choices. It is so perfect to work at times with great musicians. However, sometimes working with them is worse than pulling eye-teeth when you just need a bit of incidental music.
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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