Experience with X2 and some questions

Hello all,
 
First post here and I just wanted to make some comments about my experience with Sonar X2 compared to previous versions, and also ask a few questions.
 
I started with Sonar 85 and was quite impressed by the mature interface and snappiness of function. A few bugs kept me from using it very much and I moved to Presonus Studio One after struggling with some of the inefficiencies of Reaper. Soon after, X1 was released and I decided to upgrade, as it looked like a vast step in functionality and approach. Indeed, some of the reported functionality of X1 was mirrored in my experience with Studio One.
 
After the upgrade to X1, I was rather sorely disappointed. Despite the vast leap in design, the interface felt clunky, chunky and inefficient. There was a lack of cohesiveness to the experience and I decided to start using Studio One full time. Despite some limitations, I love the simple design and work focus of Studio One.
 
Fast forward to the release of X2 and I was understandably wary. After reading about some of the workflow enhancements and reading about initial experiences from other users, I decided to take the $99 upgrade option.
 
In short: I am not disappointed. Sonar X2 represents a refinement of ideas introduced in X1 that equate to a much tighter workflow. I love the PRV improvements, the grid and snap and just the overall tighter and snappier feel. I think that this is the best Sonar release since my experience with 8.5 and I can well imagine using it full time.
 
I do have some questions though, having come from a different paradigm in Studio One and other sequencers:
 
- I appreciate that Sonar offers a wealth of useful options when entering the export audio dialog, but I also find it confusing. I simply wanted to export the entire mix, but when I thought I had chosen the correct options, I found that it had only rendered one channel. I tried again using one of the presets ("What you hear" I think), but the same thing happened. Eventually I managed to find a setting by trial and error that worked. My question is: is there a specific preset that just lets me export the full mix?
 
- I am confused by the FX Bin and Pro Channel. Having been used to one set of insert slots in other software, is the Pro Channel meant to be an upgrade of the old FX Bin? Should I use it instead of the FX Bin? What does Post do? Where is the Pro Channel located in the insert and send chain in the mixer? I can only seem to add Pro Channel modules to it, but I see screenshots where people are adding other plugins like Tempo Delay etc. What is this about?
 
- I have read that the Console Emu should typically be placed at the start of the FX chain, but a plugin like Stripbus from SKnote is intended for the end of a chain, which seems to make more sense to me. Would it not make more sense for the console emu to be at the end of the processing chain so that preceding FX like EQs and Compressors do not alter it's subtle effects on the signal? In a real console situation, isn't everything eventually mixed through the console anyway, regardless of any outboard effects in between?
 
- What is the timestretch algo in X2? If I have a project running at 120 BPM, but I add a one shot audio sample to the mix that would sound silly at that speed, how can I tell Sonar to keep the sample at its own speed? In Ableton Live, for example, I can specify on a per sample basis which are one shot samples and which are to be timestretched to host tempo.
 
- What are the Preview mixer strips on the mixer? Can they be deleted safely to unclutter the view? And is there any way I can move the mixer strips around to organise them?
 
Thank you !
Steve
 
(edited..stupid Waterfox)

tunekicker


Whoa. That's a lot of questions. You may want to try editing your post in Internet Explorer or Safari- Firefox doesn't capture carriage returns and runs everything together. Let's take these one at a time.

1. Exporting- I think this needs some help in Sonar for sure. Regardless of your settings in the Export dialog box it only exports from the time and tracks you have selected. As such, it's really best to have the start and end of your song be at full measures, so you can set your grid to measures and easily lasso or range select all tracks. You can alternatively hit CTRL+A while in the tracks on the project view, confirm the color of clips has changed to show everything is selected, then hit File->Export->Audio. 

 
Thanks. OP edited in IE for clarity.
 
I did select all the tracks finally using CTRL-A, which did result in a full mixdown. Not intuitive, but I'm Windows savvy enough to realise that it was an option ! Yes, exporting needs work..ok. Hmmm...weird export behaviour ! Not a dealbreaker, but definitely not intuitive.

Time stretching. 

X2 uses the same Radius algorithms as X1 as far as I know. Sonar is a bit more complicated than Ableton in this regard. Ableton tries to stretch everything to tempo by default unless you turn off that setting in the preferences. Sonar doesn't.

In Sonar there are many different ways to stretch, each suited to the ways different people work. This can make it confusing, but also powerful. In general, these are: 

1. Loops. If you select a clip and hit CTRL+L Sonar will make a loop out of it. (It is best to make sure the clip starts and ends on real musical beats first.) You can then drag out the loop to repeat it.

2. Stretching to tempo. Get used to using the Clip Inspector. Hit I on your keyboard to show the inspector, then on the top of it there are selections for Track, Clip, and Pro Channel. When viewing the settings for the Clip you can choose to have it stretch with tempo changes. You can also specify the original tempo here. (If you select all clips and go here you will change the stretch settings for all clips.)

3. AudioSnap. This is a whole toolkit and needs more real estate to explain in full. In short, this allows you quantize recorded transients to the musical measures and beats in your project for things you recorded to a click or drumbeat that was on tempo. It also allows you take audio that was recorded live and set measures and beats in the timeline, so you could add additional MIDI instrumentation to live recorded tracks. In addition, you can export the detected transients as MIDI data and use that to drive a software synthesizer or drum machine. (This is rhythmic only- it doesn't understand pitch.) You can also choose which kind of stretching algorithm to use with AudioSnap in offline mode. Hit A when a clip is selected to open the AudioSnap options dialog box.

4. V-Vocal. For monophonic material like singing, both pitch and timing can be changed in V-Vocal.

5. Stretching by percentage. If you hold CTRL and drag the end of a clip in either direction it will stretch the clip to fit the new length you stretch it to.

Hope this helps. :-) There are a lot of good videos on YouTube for a number of these features. Don't hesitate to ask on the forum if you have more questions. 


Peace,


Tunes

tunekicker


Time stretching. 

X2 uses the same Radius algorithms as X1 as far as I know. Sonar is a bit more complicated than Ableton in this regard. Ableton tries to stretch everything to tempo by default unless you turn off that setting in the preferences. Sonar doesn't.

In Sonar there are many different ways to stretch, each suited to the ways different people work. This can make it confusing, but also powerful. In general, these are: 

1. Loops. If you select a clip and hit CTRL+L Sonar will make a loop out of it. (It is best to make sure the clip starts and ends on real musical beats first.) You can then drag out the loop to repeat it.

2. Stretching to tempo. Get used to using the Clip Inspector. Hit I on your keyboard to show the inspector, then on the top of it there are selections for Track, Clip, and Pro Channel. When viewing the settings for the Clip you can choose to have it stretch with tempo changes. You can also specify the original tempo here. (If you select all clips and go here you will change the stretch settings for all clips.)

3. AudioSnap. This is a whole toolkit and needs more real estate to explain in full. In short, this allows you quantize recorded transients to the musical measures and beats in your project for things you recorded to a click or drumbeat that was on tempo. It also allows you take audio that was recorded live and set measures and beats in the timeline, so you could add additional MIDI instrumentation to live recorded tracks. In addition, you can export the detected transients as MIDI data and use that to drive a software synthesizer or drum machine. (This is rhythmic only- it doesn't understand pitch.) You can also choose which kind of stretching algorithm to use with AudioSnap in offline mode. Hit A when a clip is selected to open the AudioSnap options dialog box.

4. V-Vocal. For monophonic material like singing, both pitch and timing can be changed in V-Vocal.

5. Stretching by percentage. If you hold CTRL and drag the end of a clip in either direction it will stretch the clip to fit the new length you stretch it to.

So, say I have a number of field recordings without any pitch or tempo, as such. If I have a project in the host running at 60 BPM, but naturally want the field samples to retain their clarity and original characteristics, should I just drag and drop them into X2 and not do anything further with regard to stretching?

If you want a more limited approach you might try X2 studio or X2 essentials.

For audio export, just select the required timerange and everything within you wish to hear- then export, it's not that hard really.


Timstretch algo is Izotope Radius

tunekicker


Yes, if you have recordings you want to import and don't want to modify their pitch or tempo, simply import the files. They will be left at their original pitch/tempo and not stretched by default.

It probably helps to know something about where Sonar came from. Originally Cakewalk was a MIDI sequencer, and they added audio recording later. You can see the affect of this paradigm even now- each project starts with a default tempo and meter. These might be meaningless numbers for live recordings, but they are there always.

Sonar was also not made primarily for live performance/composition like Ableton Live- thus no default tempo stretching.

I haven't used Studio One yet. It sounds like a simple to use, well thought out DAW. My impression was that the first version had a lot of limitations/things they didn't implement, but that version 2 is a big step up. Curious to hear about your experience.

Peace,

Tunes

That makes sense. I do really like X2. Clearly, there are a lot of pro features I may or may not require, but this is why I'm asking questions :)
 
Studio One is now at version 2. It is a very focussed experience. Excellent for mixing in actually, and has been pretty bulletproof for me in terms of any bugs. It is a modern bit of kit. Point upgrades can be downloaded and installed from within the software, it supports new standards like VST3 and was built from the ground up to be a slick experience. Yes, it does lack some features, but it also has little clutter to get in the way. If X2 is the first version of Sonar to 'get out of the way', then Studio One was built completely with that in mind. It's use of drag and drop is extensive and intuitive. The mixer is not as complex as Sonar's, but then bus routing and sends are arguably easier to setup too. Just CTRL select all channels to send to a bur or sedn and then just ccreate one and they will all be routed.
Multi channel VSTs are also a breeze. You can just cloick a little button to add or subtract them yourself. Mixer strips can be moved, widened, narrowed or hidden from view. I would say that a fair few of the features of X1 were possibly based on the original Studio One...at least that's how it feels.

Good to know about Studio One. Their implementation of the ARA standard is also of interest to me since I use Melodyne. Would be great to have that in Sonar.

You mentioned buss routing so one more detail in Sonar. You can Create/Edit/Remove sends for all selected tracks by holding CTRL when you do it. You can also modify the outputs of all selected tracks together by holding CTRL while you do it. This should get you a bit closer to what you're used to.

Peace,

Tunes

I would like a simpler export, too. Something that defaults to exporting all non-muted tracks from where the first clip begins to where the last one ends, with a few seconds' buffer at the end for reverb tails after the recorded clips fade out. (Unless a specific range was selected, then it should export the range by default.) It should also default to stereo output from the mains (which it does now), but with a button for "More Options", perhaps with a checkbox to "show this all the time." That way the rest of the options for "Tracks, Busses, etc" could be hidden for beginners. This would be virtually the same for advanced users once they choose to show the advanced options and show them every time.

This would be an improvement on the current functionality for sure.

CTRL+A isn't going to capture all the effects reverberating around after that time selction- you simply select the time range required, select the things you want to hear and export.    





Good point Backwoods. I'd argue a little with "simply", but that's semantics. 


Personally I think if no time range is selected Sonar should export from the beginning of sound to the end of sound for all un-muted tracks, with no accidentally missed fades at beginning or end, and no accidental reverb tails from the last instance of playback bleeding into the beginning of the export. If a time range is selected then Sonar should export all un-muted tracks for that time range. Then again, I haven't actually exported from X2 yet, so I could be missing some improvements there.

tunekicker


I would like a simpler export, too. Something that defaults to exporting all non-muted tracks from where the first clip begins to where the last one ends, with a few seconds' buffer at the end for reverb tails after the recorded clips fade out. (Unless a specific range was selected, then it should export the range by default.) It should also default to stereo output from the mains (which it does now), but with a button for "More Options", perhaps with a checkbox to "show this all the time." That way the rest of the options for "Tracks, Busses, etc" could be hidden for beginners. This would be virtually the same for advanced users once they choose to show the advanced options and show them every time.

This would be an improvement on the current functionality for sure.

+1 to this.
 
It would juist streamline the current dialog box, making it less cluttered, but also retaining the advanced options.

tunekicker


Perhaps an option then? 

Assuming a default of exporting everything from the main output:

1. Export sound from all unmuted tracks (default)
2. Export sound only from the tracks I have selected (with the ability to select/de-select them from the export interface)

Having this option would make it so track solo states could be ignored in the export. I can't think of a reason to export audio from only solo'd tracks that exporting only selected tracks couldn't handle.

Those options sound reasonable to me.
 
In Studio One, there are two export options from the top menu. One is 'Export mixdown' and the other is 'Export stems'. Both export dialogs contain additional options to customise it. You can export all audio between the loop markers, including any tails, or you can export only the audio between markers you've placed on the timeline. It is all very sensibly laid out and easy to understand without reading a manual.
All software can be improved, but that represents well thought out design.

I'm another user that does not select track or measures when exporting and I've never had any problems.

One thing I would say though, is that it is possible to crop an effects tail or a synth tail and to get over that issue I may stretch a clip or add a MIDI event at some point after I know will capture the effect/synth tail.

Been doing it this way for years now :-)

As I don't mix in Sonar (I mix at the local studio with the help of an engineer on PT)I very often have to export stems.

I find the current process fastidious as I have to do each track one by one.

I would like to see and "export stems" feature adn very importatnly be able to specify for each track if it exports in mono or stereo.

That really would be helpful.

This way, I could set everything up and thenlet sonar bounce each track as specified.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]

You can do per track exports in any version of SONAR. Just set the source category to tracks and export and you will get stem exports of every track all done in one pass.
I do this all the time when I edit live mixes. You can also export buses as stems with source category set to buses.

While I agree that the export dialog could do with some streamlining and we will at some point, SONAR has some of the most comprehensive choices available for export especially with the fact that you can export arbitrary selections.
To simplify the choices spend a few minutes and create your own export presets and you won't have to think of this stuff anymore. 

I absolutely agree that it is comprehensive, and that many users will find the options useful, but it could also be streamlined without losing any of its current functionality. Clearly, Cakewalk have opted for a complete overhaul of the way Sonar looks, and while the workflow and functionality is fast catching up with that aesthetic with the release of X2, small areas, such as the export dialog, need an overhaul as well. I don't like to compare programs, but there are others with comprehensive export options that present it in a far more intuitive way. It would not hurt Cakewalk to look at what is being done elsewhere and perhaps take some inspiration.
 
Noel, I think the fact that one of the experienced users above was unaware of the stem rendering options and you had to inform him, could be a reasonable enough sign that the current export dialog could do with some tweaking :)
 
This is an increasingly competitive market and it only takes one competitor to implement something exceptional to cause other companies to lose a little ground.
 
I also understand that Cakewalk have a long and proud history in the market and also have a lot of legacy features and code, not to  mention pro users. Overhauling something like Sonar takes time and I think the X series is heading in the right direction.