Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy

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karma1959
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2017/01/23 12:44:52 (permalink)

Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy

Hi all,
I'm trying something new and must be doing something wrong.  I have MIDI drum patterns in Sonar playing back through BFD3 - plays back fine in real time and when rendered to WAV or MP3.  I wanted to export the drum pattern to individual WAV files, then import into Sonar, to apply EQ / compression, etc. to individual drum pieces more accurately. 
 
I export from BFD3 fine - all separate WAV files are created and they import into Sonar fine, however when playing those WAV files back, they are basically all fuzz and static.  The underlying drum sound is there faintly, but something's clearly funky.  I've checked the obvious things like sample rate, bit depth, etc.. and all are set the same as my Sonar project.
 
Any recommendations?
Thanks!
 

Sonar Platinum x64 on Win10 64, Dell T7400 w/ 8 Xeon cores, 8 Gbyte RAM, 3 hard drives, RME Fireface UFX, UAD-1, Mackie Control, Adam A7X
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    dcumpian
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 13:23:20 (permalink)
    What happens if you import just one of the WAV files into a new project and play that back?
    Dan

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    #2
    Beepster
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 13:30:31 (permalink)
    hmm... I'm not really understanding the end goal of this process.
     
    Why don't you just set BFD3 up as a multi output synth (where each kit piece/channel in BFD3 gets its own audio output track in Sonar). Then you can treat those tracks just like you would a multi mic'd live kit (adding effects and whatnot).
     
    In the newer versions of Sonar you can actually record those outputs into those tracks as well (with the new-ish synth recording options... just engage the Record Enable button on all the tracks then engage Transport Record).
     
    This will create waves right inside your current project inside the synth audio output tracks thus avoiding all this exporting and importing.
     
    Perhaps not helpful if you are doing something specific but with the info provided that seems like the path of least resistance in this case.
     
    Cheers.
    #3
    Beepster
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 13:40:28 (permalink)
    PS: If you want to access those raw Waves created using the method I described above to do something like import into a new project then you can simply navigate to the "Audio" folder of your project (provided you have Per Project Folder engaged) and use the Windows Explorer "Sort By Date" button (at the top of the file folder window... you may need to fiddle with the folder options a bit to expose the "Date Created/Modified" options). If you do this immediately after you do the Synth Record move all the drum waves will be lumped together (at the top or bottom) in the folder window. From there you can copy them to another folder and import into a new project from there and/or import them into a new project directly from the original audio folder (I usually make a copy and stash the files in my special little Import/Export folder scheme for easy access).
     
    If that makes sense. Cheers.
    #4
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 14:03:54 (permalink)
    Spot on Beep.
     
    If you already have things set up in SONAR so that each kit piece is on it's own Audio track there is no need to bounce to wavs.
    you can apply EQ & Compression to the audio tracks just as you would if you were dealing with actual audio.
     
    Another option if you really want to work with the wavs is just to freeze BFD - this will create the necessary audio tracks for you.
    Just make sure (if you want to do further audio processing and I gather you do) is to right click the freeze icon and untick Fx

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    #5
    Beepster
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 14:31:12 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey
    Spot on Beep.
     
    If you already have things set up in SONAR so that each kit piece is on it's own Audio track there is no need to bounce to wavs.
    you can apply EQ & Compression to the audio tracks just as you would if you were dealing with actual audio.
     
    Another option if you really want to work with the wavs is just to freeze BFD - this will create the necessary audio tracks for you.
    Just make sure (if you want to do further audio processing and I gather you do) is to right click the freeze icon and untick Fx




    Howdy, Jonesey (hope you've been well).
     
    I was gonna mention the Freeze option in case OP was on an earlier version but since they have SPlat in their sig and personally I've never really used Freeze extensively I thought I'd forgo it (lest I look the fool).
     
    BUT since we are on the topic... for the Freeze method to work in the most flexible manner (ie: being able to add FX to the frozen synth ouptut tracks) I'm going to further your thoughts by pointing out the difference between a "Track" Freeze and a "Synth" Freeze.
     
    Please fellow helper monkeys whom are more familiar with the ways of the "Freeze" perhaps elucidate on the procedures/differences of the two to really nail this thread down for the archives. Again I simply don't do it so am likely talking out my butt.
     
    BUT... (lol, butt) my understanding/suggestion in the event that Freeze is the only in project option (for older Sonar versions before synth recording was introduced) would be to perform the "Freeze" move in the Synth Rack/Browser. ie: Open the Browser (press B), navigate to the "Synth's" tab/rack via the tabs at the top of the Browser (if necessary) then press the "Freeze" button for the specific synth in the list you require waves for.
     
    This, IIRC, will generate the "Frozen" waves within the synth output tracks BUT leave the track's FX bin(s) and other parameters open/accessible for mixing duties.
     
    Whereas "Freezing" the track itself prints any effects on the track onto the "Frozen" wave(s) as well and disables any access to those effects (until the track is unfrozen).
     
    So ya... you smarterer doods can hopefully translate the above Beepso gibberish into something more accurate and helfpul and/or correct any false assumptions/logic due to my inexperience with the various Freeze methods.
     
    Maybe yes? Curious myself now but not curious enough to do any tests at the mo.
     
    Cheers.
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    bapu
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 14:39:37 (permalink)
    Beeps,
     
    I freeze drum tracks before I apply fx. Then I can fx the frozen tracks to my hearts content.
     
    #7
    Beepster
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 14:51:30 (permalink)
    bapu
    Beeps,
     
    I freeze drum tracks before I apply fx. Then I can fx the frozen tracks to my hearts content.
     




    What specific steps are you taking to acheive that though? Like I said I think that in the past I've done this by freezing via the Synth Rack but maybe if I froze the actual tracks then the FX bin remains available (or clears out the current effects after printing them to the audio starting a fresh/accessible FX Bin) or maybe there are advanced Freeze options I am forgetting/not aware of where you can pick/choose the type of Freeze (ie: Synth or FX or Synth + FX, etc).
     
    I don't really have much use for it these days but might be helpful to others... and I might be able to regurgitate the info in the future as needed.
     
    I'd test it but I ain;t mucking about with the project I currently have open (which is gettin' purtier/fancier by the parsec FYI... lol).
    #8
    karma1959
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 15:00:49 (permalink)
    Hi all,
    Thanks for the thoughts.  The only reason I opted to export the BFD3 playback to WAV files then reimport them was simply because it was the first / quickest way I (thought!) I'd found to accomplish the task. I tried to setup BFD3 as a multi output synth as beepster suggests above, but struggled.  Not sure where I went wrong, but a quick search showed me a youtube video of the export to WAV / import approach, and I gave that a shot. 
     
    I'll give setting up as a multi out synch another shot and come back with a specific question on that approach if I'm unsuccessful again. 
     
    Thanks
    Russ

    Sonar Platinum x64 on Win10 64, Dell T7400 w/ 8 Xeon cores, 8 Gbyte RAM, 3 hard drives, RME Fireface UFX, UAD-1, Mackie Control, Adam A7X
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    Beepster
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 15:33:08 (permalink)
    karma1959
    Hi all,
    Thanks for the thoughts.  The only reason I opted to export the BFD3 playback to WAV files then reimport them was simply because it was the first / quickest way I (thought!) I'd found to accomplish the task. I tried to setup BFD3 as a multi output synth as beepster suggests above, but struggled.  Not sure where I went wrong, but a quick search showed me a youtube video of the export to WAV / import approach, and I gave that a shot. 
     
    I'll give setting up as a multi out synch another shot and come back with a specific question on that approach if I'm unsuccessful again. 
     
    Thanks
    Russ




    The way Sonar sets up multi out synth's isn't great for pure drum setups. I do it manually by creating a mono audio track within Sonar for each kitpiece/mic output within my drum sampler then routing everything as needed (within the drum synth and inside the Sonar tracks).
     
    I'm in the middle of other stuff so if you don't get it sorted or the other doods don't post this (rather long winded but ideal) method then I'll try to type something up.
     
    The problem with the automagic "Insert Synth" dialog method of setting up multi out drum set ups is that you have a choice between "All Outputs Stereo" or "All Outputs Mono".
     
    With the stereo option then things that in the real world would be a single mic on a single kit piece (like a snare top or a tom or a kick) has a stereo track setup. So instead of a mono "top" snare you get a stereo snare.
     
    With the "Mono" option you generally end up with two tracks for every kitpiece/virtual mic so you have to delete a bunch of those superfluous tracks.
     
    Also for any drum program I've ever worked with (and multi out synths in general) you usually need to go through that synth/sampler's mixer page and manually route/point the synth's outputs to the tracks you have created in Sonar (or whatever DAW you are using). Otherwise you will (generally) only get feed from the synth/sampler's multi ouput sent to one or all of the tracks... which based on your description is the problem in the first place.
     
    So check that out and I'll creep back later. IMO learning how to manually route complex MIDI setups such of this is a worthwhile learning experience. Once it's done and you feel confident you understand it all then you can just create a track template of the results for quick loading later on.
     
    Cheers.
     
    *absconds into the drizzly afternoon*
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    karma1959
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 15:37:42 (permalink)
    Beepster
    Also for any drum program I've ever worked with (and multi out synths in general) you usually need to go through that synth/sampler's mixer page and manually route/point the synth's outputs to the tracks you have created in Sonar (or whatever DAW you are using). Otherwise you will (generally) only get feed from the synth/sampler's multi output sent to one or all of the tracks... which based on your description is the problem in the first place.

     
    Fantastic - thanks so much for the detailed explanation!  I think I was having the issue you describe with BFDs multi output going to a single track or all tracks no matter how I configured it - which was baffling me.    I'll give it another go and let you know the scoop.
     
    Thanks again.
     

    Sonar Platinum x64 on Win10 64, Dell T7400 w/ 8 Xeon cores, 8 Gbyte RAM, 3 hard drives, RME Fireface UFX, UAD-1, Mackie Control, Adam A7X
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    John
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 15:42:29 (permalink)
    I simply freeze the synth from the synth rack. With BFD3 its a simple matter to have each kit piece on it own audio track. You do this by clicking on the output at the bottom of the mixer within  BFD3.  Of course one has to have told Sonar to create all audio outputs via the synth property page upon inserting in the synth rack first.
     
    I think its far easier to do it this way than exporting and than importing the created wav files. 

    Best
    John
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    karma1959
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 15:48:50 (permalink)
    thanks. I'll give it a try..

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    Beepster
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 15:50:03 (permalink)
    Ya, cool. Check BFD3's mixer page then and read the manual to find out how to change the channel ouputs (if set up correctly you will see the tracks within SONAR). I only have BFD Eco so can't help you there but the process should be similar (as it is with most multi out synths).
     
    Also I made a typo/mistake. I meant to say that without setting up the synths channel outputs in this manner they will usually only feed the synths "Master" output into one track (or multiple tracks) inside the DAW. Thus offering absolutely no separation of the kit peices or ability to add effects/pan/generally mix said individual peices.
     
    As you do this though keep in mind Stereo Mic Pairs (such as overheads and/or Room mics) should be kept in sync but as a "mirror" image of each other so you may want to keep those pairs outputting to a single stereo track so effects and volume levels are even. Otherwise if you use MONO tracks for those pairs make sure as you mix you preserve that "stereo pair" correlation (like keeping the levels the same, applying the same effects in equal proportion to both tracks, panning in equal amounts opposite of each other... stuff like that).
     
    If you go the stereo track route but don't like the stereo panning of your Room/Overhead mics then adjust the pan positions within the sampler/synth mixer instead of trying to screw with that in Sonar which is impossible without some silly shenanigans.
     
    Just my experiences.
     
    Not a "pro".
     
    Cheers.
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 18:07:03 (permalink)
    I normally choose "Insert All Mono Tracks" when using BFD
     
    Then as Beep says it's just a matter of deleting the duplicates and converting the Overheads/Room & other ambient channels to stereo.
     
    If you plan on using the same kit again it's worth saving the whole thing down as a template onve you've got it all configured.
    I used to do that but rarely use the same kit twice, I like to build mine from scratch, so in this scenario, templates don't help a great deal as you get varying numbers of articulations for certain kit pieces, especially Toms & Cymbals.

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    bapu
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    Re: Export BFD3 to separate tracks sounds fuzzy 2017/01/23 18:26:53 (permalink)
    Beepster
    bapu
    Beeps,
     
    I freeze drum tracks before I apply fx. Then I can fx the frozen tracks to my hearts content.
     




    What specific steps are you taking to acheive that though? 

    Simplified version/steps.
     
    1. Insert synth folder with dumpler of choice and select the type of multiple tracks you want 
    2. Setup drumpler to output its channels to the appropriate SONAR audio channel
    3. Create all MIID patterns
    4. Freeze, using the freeze button on any single on any one audio track (doesn't matter cuz all tracks will freeze)
    5. Unbypass fx bin on the tracks you want to put FX(s) on 
     
    or alternate
     
    5. Move all frozen tracks to new audio tracks and FX there, muting the original folder in case I want to go back for edits.
     
    #16
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