Exporting Issues

Just to be sure, I took the exported track that I measured at -9, inserted the .wav into a new Sonar file, and measured using the same mastering software. The .wav was playing at -19, had severe distortion and clipping that wasn't present in the mix I created, and ran several BPM slower than what I had produced. I'm starting to think that Sonar doesn't produce viable .wavs, which would make the program a waste of time. But hopefully I'm just missing something. Anyone have some ideas?

If the exported file ran slower, then you have a sample rate mismatch somewhere, to start with. 
It's 100% sure SONAR produces high-pro quality stuff when used correctly, no question about it.
It's actually a bit silly to even doubt it, but I understand your frustration. I've never read about chronic export issues, and I've never experienced any during my 20 year CW-use. IMO, export has always been a very straight forward and simple process. Then again, I'm still on 8.5.
 
Does your export process include dithering etc? What is the project sample rate and to what sample rate are you exporting? What is your exact workflow for export? What is the mastering software you are using? We should know what you're doing in order to start trouble shooting.
 
I assume there was no FX in the new project where you opened the exported file? (It's happened to many that they accidentally double-process)

chrisby
Not sure if this is a bug, how it works, or just some wrong setting but I just went through something very similar... long story short I found that the "entire mix" export seemed to be very quiet versus selecting to export "bus output" (or something like that, going from memory) and choosing "Master" as the only bus selected seemed to produce a wav file with volumes exactly as the master bus meters displayed. Might be something very simple I (and possibly you) have set wrong but there is a definite big difference in the two where I would have thought those two options would yield the same results...

(Not saying that there couldn't be a bug somewhere, but) it depends on what you have in the project. If every track in the project is routed through Master Bus, then AFAIK "Entire Mix" and "Master" as the source should give identical results. If anything is routed directly out from track, they're different, if there's any FX in the Master Bus or if the output level of the individual tracks (not going through Master) are different from that of the Master.

You obviously have some routing issues if this is happening to you. Sonar will not change the level of your sound and it will not change the sound of your track/song hen exporting. The only way it will do this is if you tell it to, but having a level or export property configuration set up that way.
 
Make sure your routing is like this:
All Tracks go to the Master Bus
All Sends on the track level (if you have them) go to a bus.
All Buses go to the Master Bus
The Master Bus goes to the Main Outs
 
Exporting Properties that will yield a mix exactly how it sounds in Sonar, when your Routing is correct.
Make sure you select 'Entire Mix' or 'Main Outs' as the source in the export properties.
Dither can be any of the POW's
If you are burning to a CD, select 16bit and 44.1kHz as you bit rate and sample rate.
 
There you go,
CJ
 

Its not a bug, as i would have seen it in the hundreds of exports i have done in the past month. no one else is seeing your issue either. So a bug is not the cause. It clearly a routing issue and/or a setting in your export issue or maybe even a setting in your limiter
 
I would check your routing when you get home
 
 

No offence, but I write software for a living, and have for about 30 years...

No offence, but if it was a bug, everyone would see it and we don't. This fact will tell you that its not a bug and its user error
 
Cj

CJaysMusic

No offence, but I write software for a living, and have for about 30 years...

No offence, but if it was a bug, everyone would see it and we don't. This fact will tell you that its not a bug and its user error

Cj

Mmmm, great... sage advice. Who knew it was really all so easy and straight forward... all that time wasted getting a computer science degree and years of writing code!!!

js516
Have you tried unchecking "fast bounce"?

I have noticed that from time to time, some plugins/instruments sometimes just don't render the same when using fast bounce.

Thanks for the suggestion, I did try that when I first ran into it that but saw no difference. I did also check that my track/bus routings were all correct and they were so.... who knows. I just know it can't be a bug, apparently.
 

CJaysMusic

No offence, but I write software for a living, and have for about 30 years...

No offence, but if it was a bug, everyone would see it and we don't. This fact will tell you that its not a bug and its user error

CJ, chrisby's absolutely correct about bugs that can only be reproduced under specific and/or unusual conditions. Think about the genuine bugs we've seen over the years. Every one of them initially escaped the notice of the programmers, the QA people, and the beta testers. Many were not seen by the first thousand users, either. It's even not unusual for a bug to show up years after a product is deemed "stable", or to affect only 1 out of 50,000 users. It does happen.
 
That said, it's also human nature to assume a bug when you have no better explanation. We routinely see bug claims on these forums that turn out to be user error, and that happens more often than the discovery of actual bugs. That, chrisby, is the basis for CJ's skepticism. Either of you could be correct, but if we were placing bets I'd side with CJ even though his logic is flawed.
 
As stated by several responders, the most likely explanation for the OP's issue is a routing problem. In short, what you're hearing is not what you're exporting.
 
Why do we all presume this explanation? Because we've all made dumb routing mistakes and sat there scratching our heads wondering what was wrong. I've taken 6dB off the master to lower the monitoring volume during overdubs and forgotten to reset it, not noticing the difference until I looked at the exported file. I've inadvertently routed a track or bus directly to the main outs - once only discovering the error after I put a fadeout on the master bus and the tambourine kept on playing. 
 
Junkyard, the first thing I do when troubleshooting this kind of problem is to mute the master bus and verify that everything goes silent. If it doesn't, then something's not going through that bus. If it does, then the next-most-likely problem would be export options. Make sure all the "mix enable" options are checked so that automations are respected, and that "Entire Mix" is selected as the source.
 
 
 
 

John
Chrisby can you post a step by step sequence of exactly what you do when you export? Leave nothing out. 
 
But first I assume you are routing all audio through your master buss and if so what are the meter readings there? 

Sorry, thanks for the offer to help but as above it's really not all worth pursuing further I don't think. If you are really interested though let me know and I'll send you screenshots of the track routing settings, the master bus wav renderings, the resulting file export wav file renderings, and the export settings - that will pretty much sum everything up I think. 

I don't have export problems but I don't use the usual method. Prior to mastering, I often bounce multiple mixes into individual Sonar tracks using Bounce to Track(s) so I can A/B them (with exclusive solo). Sometimes I combine different parts (e.g., the intro from one mix but solo from another).
 
After I have a track that's exactly what I want, I drag it to its final destination.
 

Anderton
After I have a track that's exactly what I want, I drag it to its final destination.

This one was an eye opener for me, as I often will bounce tracks to mix-down, but have always exported the final track! It never occurred to me to even try drag-dropping, that is almost too simple, but makes me wonder about master bus effects/PC now. I need to delve into this idea more.

mettelus

Anderton
After I have a track that's exactly what I want, I drag it to its final destination.

This one was an eye opener for me, as I often will bounce tracks to mix-down, but have always exported the final track! It never occurred to me to even try drag-dropping, that is almost too simple, but makes me wonder about master bus effects/PC now. I need to delve into this idea more.

It's not too simple, it's just simple :) Remember you can drag the file to the desktop or to a location in the browser.
 
What's even better is that if you drag an acidized file, it remains acidized...one of the many reasons why Sonar is my program of choice when creating sound libraries.

I don't think you'll find anywhere in any of my posts where I assume it's a bug.

Not directly, no. But you did say:

I'm starting to think that Sonar doesn't produce viable .wavs

That sure sounds like the presumption of a bug. Any DAW that cannot produce viable output clearly has a serious showstopper of a bug. That's what elicited the "it's not a bug" responses, and why I replied as I did, for fear that you'd waste energy barking up the wrong tree. 
 
I can't imagine why you concluded that "it's really not worth pursuing further", without describing a workaround. If it was me, I'd want to know why the problem was occurring so as to avoid it in the future. 
 
 

chrisby
No offence, but I write software for a living, and have for about 30 years.... it very well could be a bug.

 

John
Chrisby can you post a step by step sequence of exactly what you do when you export? Leave nothing out. 

chrisby
Sorry, thanks for the offer to help but as above it's really not all worth pursuing further I don't think. If you are really interested though let me know and I'll send you screenshots of the track routing settings, the master bus wav renderings, the resulting file export wav file renderings, and the export settings - that will pretty much sum everything up I think.

 
I'm extremely surprised. As you work in software (although I don't exactly know what you do) you should know that you need to give clear steps to reproduce if you find a bug, and speculation is not at all helpful unless you are prepared to make sure everybody understands what it is. After 30 years in the business you of all people would know the worst thing to do is assume anything... I would hope you would give John the steps here after all.
 

chrisby
Mmmm, great... sage advice. Who knew it was really all so easy and straight forward... all that time wasted getting a computer science degree and years of writing code!!!

 
So that makes two of us.
 
So how about full steps to reproduce like you would normally do when filing any bug report, you must have looked into what QA does? Then maybe we could help, people have deep knowledge on these forums and the chances are you may be overlooking something, and if there IS a bug we would want to know about it.
 
Thanks.. :)

I'm running mastering software on my master bus that shows my RMS at around -9. That should be comparable to commercial music.

You do know that RMS levels are not a measure of perceived loudness. So saying your song is at a an RMS of -9 doesn't mean its as loud as another song at -9 RMS.  
 
CJ