Exporting in Sonar

Hi all, I was wondering if there is any quality difference in exporting your mixed song in sonar.  should I do a fast bounce or uncheck it? I heard from other engineers that there is a difference and you should always export without fast bounce ,unless its not the final mix. Ive heard that its not a good idea to fast bounce because the rendering process sometimes does not get all the specific details from the plug ins when fast bouncing therefore it is better to uncheck the option, I hope Im being clear on this, so please correct me If Im wrong. My main concern is to get the highest quality possible when exporting.   thank you!!

Best regards

Art1820m


Hi all, I was wondering if there is any quality difference in exporting your mixed song in sonar.  should I do a fast bounce or uncheck it? I heard from other engineers that there is a difference and you should always export without fast bounce ,unless its not the final mix. Ive heard that its not a good idea to fast bounce because the rendering process sometimes does not get all the specific details from the plug ins when fast bouncing therefore it is better to uncheck the option, I hope Im being clear on this, so please correct me If Im wrong. My main concern is to get the highest quality possible when exporting.   thank you!!

Best regards

As Brundlefly said, there really is no difference between fast and realtime bounce if all the plugins are capable of a fast bounce (not all are).
 
But I generally do realtime bounce so that I can hear any anomolies immediately - including computer hiccups ;)
If I do a fast bounce, of course I immediately play it back to check it (which makes it fast to just do a realtime bounce in the first place).
 
But bouncedowns are not the same as "exporting".   Exporting is after the fact.  IOW, you would do the bouncedown first to result in a stereo mix (wav) file.  Then you would export this resulting track.
 
 

Kind of off topic... but still somewhat related to this topic: I am exporting video in Sonar for my director to see.  Every time, regardless of what I select in the Track View, I get the entire video.  I just want a scene.  I would slice the video at the beginning and end of the scene, but this isn't possible.  Ideas???

Tom Hopkins, the main Garritan developer, explained to us that Aria HAS to be bounced in Fast mode. In simple English, with Fast mode engaged, Aria understands that the host is asking for a rendering of tracks to be performed. But with Fast disengaged, Aria isn't prepared in the right way for the rendering to be done accurately. I remember in his explanatory post that Tom explained that "Fast" has nothing to do with the quality of a rendering/recording. It has everything to do with the way software interacts with the request. Now - I don't know if other soft synths or sample players are anything like Aria in their programming in this regard, but it makes you realize that to decide whether or not to bounce in Fast mode is a more complex question than you might have realized it is.

Randy,

You and I both use a LOT of plugins and big ones.  The explanation as offered by Tom Hopkins (above) sounds like an excuse.  

Though some plugins (BFD2 is an example) need to be 'set' for rendering offline (ie, fast bounce), perhaps Aria does too.  But that explanation doesn't explain why some other major/big plugins work well in either Fast Bounce OR Realtime mode.

However, as you point out, one has to decide based on the circumstance and particular plugins being used.

I don't worry about such things, because I always bounce my synths to audio before mixing. I'm not concerned about how synths want to be treated at export time.

Interestingly I used to not freeze to audio for the longest time.  But these days I've definitely gone to that approach when I'm reasonably sure I'm done with the 'parts' (though it's easy enough to unfreeze).

Prior to 8.x, freezing forced us to freeze the FX.  I always disliked that.  Now that we can freeze without freezing the FX, it's a whole 'nother world, and a good one.

So yeah, I now get my finished parts down to audio tracks.  It makes it much easier to work on things like Compression because we can see peaks easier, amongst other benefits.

And this is an area where Sonar shines, of course.

But bouncedowns are not the same as "exporting".   Exporting is after the fact.  IOW, you would do the bouncedown first to result in a stereo mix (wav) file.  Then you would export this resulting track.

Really?

I always do an export right from the Track View, with all tracks live.

What benefit am I missing here?

Bristol_Jonesey

But bouncedowns are not the same as "exporting".   Exporting is after the fact.  IOW, you would do the bouncedown first to result in a stereo mix (wav) file.  Then you would export this resulting track.

Really?

I always do an export right from the Track View, with all tracks live.

What benefit am I missing here?

Absolutely nothing. I'm not completely sure what Billy's intent was but there's no need to "bounce" a mix prior to exporting...

Yes, ( post #11) this is interesting, I was told a while back that one does not need to bounce soft synths as they will export as audio

That is true JohnnyV. In most synths, 99.89% of them, do not need to be rendered to audio before exporting the project to a stereo wave file for Cd burning and/or Mp3 conversion.
Cj

Bristol_Jonesey

But bouncedowns are not the same as "exporting".   Exporting is after the fact.  IOW, you would do the bouncedown first to result in a stereo mix (wav) file.  Then you would export this resulting track.

Really?

I always do an export right from the Track View, with all tracks live.

What benefit am I missing here?

How do you listen to a "playback" of the mix if you export first?   This would require another app just to check the result.   Seems to me that takes away some options.   I can't count the times I did a mixdown and decided to go back and tweak somoe parts.   If I was exporting first it would be more time consuming.
 
So I personally don't see a benefit to that approach.
 
But I also didn't realize you were all talking about exporting the "entire" project that way.  I thought the original post was referring to after one had a final mixdown (bouncedown).   I still don't see a benefit to exporting before mixdown, but I guess everyone has their reason to do so.
 
 

papa2005


Billy,

Okay, your reasoning makes a little more sense to me now. One flaw in your reasoning is that you state "this would require another app just to check the result"...Not true. You can always import the exported .wav file back into your SONAR project and SOLO it to check for mistakes...

I guess it's a matter of personal preference & workflow methodology...The main reason I "export" instead of "bounce" is because I use Adobe Audition for cleanup & editing (and spectral analysis, etc.,)...I'm comfortable working that way, others may not be...

I use Audition as well to do my final tweaks (or just to handle making mp3 and balancing levels to match other mixes etc).
 
My general approach has been to do the mixdown in Sonar.   Then use the Tools menu to send that stereo track to Audition.    But the main thing I was getting at is that it seems like an extra step to do the export rather than the mixdown.  What would be the purpose of exporting the track(s) only to bring that back in ?
 
To each his own, of course. 
BTW, another advantage of bouncedowns/mixdowns in Sonar is the ability to quickly A/B mixes before exporting.
 

As I said, I find the "export" file sounds just like the mix I just created..

It should and if its not, your selecting the wrong export properties.
 
If Cake made the export sound different from your mix, what would be the point of mixing it?? If all you got was something different upon export..Damn right the export exports the same exact thing. Cake would be out of business if it didn't
Cj
 

I don't understand the advantage of having a bounced mixdown inside your project - it's going to be exactly the same as your mix - isn't it?

James, that is correct. the only thing that can change is if you have your render set to 32bit. Then you'll be listening to an audio file that was bounced to 32bit float. But that doesn't change the sound or the tonal qualities of the song. It just gives a bit more room for further processing.
Cj
 

Hi Billy, Not following the logic of this - if you've heard things that needed tweaking in a bounced stereo file which is still within your project, why couldn't you hear them when playing your project? I can understand making changes after listening to the mix in your car, on the stereo, iPod, whatever, but that requires an exported file. I don't understand the advantage of having a bounced mixdown inside your project - it's going to be exactly the same as your mix - isn't it?

 
James, this is just my workflow.  Obviously the consensus in this thread's users is to export.  I'm not in that camp, and I did misunderstand the intial post, obviously.
But that being said -- by mixing down within the project I can do a few things:
1- immediately "hear" if something bothers me, which gives me the ability to stop the mix and tweak it before bouncing down again.
2- keep multiple mixes within the project for A/B comparisons
3- Use any of the mixes (usually the one I like most) as the reference to compare against any changes I might make to the mix (again).
4- Organization.  I know where my main "unmastered" mixes are, so to speak.
 
Now, once I do have a mix I like, (which is usually SOLO'd so I only hear it, not the other tracks), I just Tool copy that to Audition for any final "pre-mastering" tweaks/levelling, and also where I create final "wav" and "mp3" (and whatever else).
 
IF I need to go back and change something later on (even a long time down the road), it's a one-stop find (the project).
 
So that's what works for me.  Exporting is - for me (and obviously me alone here lol) not as useful or convenient.
 
And again, I didn't realize the OP was exporting the "entire" project (like a mix) when I responded.  So my response probably wasn't in line with what the OP was looking for.
 
But I do think my approach is one that works well for me, regardless.  I've literally never had to export anything from Sonar with regard to "mixes".
 
 
 

All I see is that when you bounce to tracks it does the same thing as an export but the file stays within Sonar. Just a different way of doing the same thing so both are fine by me.

johnnyV


Yes, ( post #11)  this is interesting, I was told a while back that one does not need to bounce soft synths as they will export as audio. I too have been exporting from track view with a mix of audio and MIDI tracks. So far it has always come out the way it should. So is it better to bounce MIDI to Audio or not?

That's entirely up to you.
 
Personally, when it come to mixing, I like to deal with just the audio wavs, that way, I will ALWAYS be able to go back and remix/re-visit a project irrespective of the availability or stability of a plugin that may be long gone.
 
Also, when I've finished bouncing my soft synth tracks down, I'll save the new version under a different name and delete all the old MIDI tracks AND the synths, so that the resulting audio-only file is as small as possible and with a reduced memory footprint.