Expression Pedal only acting as volume pedal is this right ?

Author
Garry Stubbs
Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2619
  • Joined: 2008/02/18 17:34:48
  • Location: Castlethorpe, UK
  • Status: offline
2012/06/09 09:36:13 (permalink)

Expression Pedal only acting as volume pedal is this right ?

This week I have decided to upgrade my Edirol PCR-500 with a Roland DP-2 sustain pedal and Roland EV-5 expression pedal to enhance the performances I can pull out of it whilst tracking keyboard parts. Whilst the Roland DP-2 sustain pedal acts as expected, the Roland EV-5 expression pedal only seems to act as a volume pedal for all my soft synth patches, mainly Rapture, Dimension Pro, GPO4 and Kontakt. When I record some test tracks I can see a volume automation line get recorded along with the midi data, and of course it plays back as recorded, complete with volume automation. 

Where I am confused is that I expected many soft synth patches and programs to have other parameters programmed to respond to the expression pedal. Is my expectation correct? For example LFO speed, panning control or reverb level or perhaps other parameters allowing 'expression' to the performance. 

Is it just that the connection to the MIDI controller only controls and sends CC7 (volume) data to Sonar X1 by default, and I have to program that input to control other parameters?

I just need to get a perspective on this, before spending hours fiddling with MIDI CC setups that may already be programmed in my soft synth patches and I am 'missing' something.

Garry Kiosk
post edited by The Kiosk Project - 2012/06/09 09:50:18


https://soundcloud.com/garry-kiosk
Sonar Platinum 64-bit: Q6600 8Gb Win7 64-bit: KRK Monitors: ART MPA PRO VLA ii preamp: 3 x 500Gb internal SATA disks: Superior Drummer2: GPO4: Realstrat: Saxlab: Rapture: Dimension Pro: Ozone 4: Edirol SPS-660: PCR-500 MIDI controller: Korg PadKontrol: Fender / Gibson / Yamaha / Ibanez guitars:Guitar Rig 5: Dual 22" Monitors: Mapex Drums, Sabian AAX cymbals: Alesis DM5 Pro Kit: SE Electronics and Shure Mics: Mathmos Lava Lamp (40W)
#1

5 Replies Related Threads

    Tom Riggs
    Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1752
    • Joined: 2003/11/08 22:47:26
    • Location: Displaced Kansan living in Philippines
    • Status: offline
    Re:Expression Pedal only acting as volume pedal is this right ? 2012/06/09 10:12:51 (permalink)
    For the Synths that I use the expression is always the same as volume. It may be possible to map the expression to another parameter if you need to. One way is to setup an envelope for the parameter and then use midi learn to automate it. Remember to turn on and off the automation record so that you do not accidentally record over your automation at a later date.

    i7-3770k OC at 4.5Ghz, asus p8z77-m, 16g g.skill aries 1600 c9 ram, Noctua d-14 cooler, RME HDSPe Raydat, Motu FastLane, Nvidea GTX 980 ti 6G, windows 7 and 8.1 pro x64. Sonar Platinum and x3e currently installed

    My Music 
    My YouTube
     
    #2
    daveny5
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 16934
    • Joined: 2003/11/06 09:54:36
    • Location: North Carolina
    • Status: offline
    Re:Expression Pedal only acting as volume pedal is this right ? 2012/06/09 10:34:02 (permalink)
    From the Web:

    Q: What is the difference is between MIDI volume and expression? 



    A: Volume (Continuous Controller 07) and expression (Continuous Controller 11) both do the exact same thing. However they give users two different ways to deal with MIDI mixing. The standard protocol is to use MIDI volume (CC #07) to set the MIDI channel (or a phrase or segment in a sequencer) level for balancing overall volumes against other channels. A mixing console will accomplish the same thing but using CC #07 will do it in MIDI and thus lock it into the sequencer.

    Expression (CC #11) can then be used for crescendos and decrescendos during the performance of the music. This way, if you need to bring the overall volume of the whole track up or down, you would use CC #07, but all the expression programming would still work just as you'd set it up to. 


    Dave
    Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F
    Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX
    Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic.
    Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. 
    Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
    #3
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Expression Pedal only acting as volume pedal is this right ? 2012/06/09 10:56:46 (permalink)
    There is a subtle difference in the MIDI spec. Expression is intended as a secondary volume control and implemented as a percentage of the CC7 volume - although it's left to manufacturers to determine how to actually implement it. In Kontakt, for example, CC7 and CC11 are treated as being interchangeable.

    So according to the spec, a CC11 value of 64 means "give me 50% of the volume specified by CC7", and a value of 127 means "give me 100% of the volume specified by CC7".  If CC7 was set to zero, CC11 should not have any effect -- IF the synth manufacturer followed the spec. In practice, many synths literally tie CC11 to the same circuit/algorithm as CC7.

    There is nothing preventing the designer of an individual patch or library from also tying CC11 to another parameter, as can you. Most don't, however.

    (BTW, there is yet a third level of volume precision in the spec, too. A subset of CC11, it's to CC11 what CC11 is to CC7. I don't know if it's ever used, though.)


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #4
    Garry Stubbs
    Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2619
    • Joined: 2008/02/18 17:34:48
    • Location: Castlethorpe, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:Expression Pedal only acting as volume pedal is this right ? 2012/06/09 15:22:35 (permalink)
    Tom, Dave and Bit (Dave), Thanks for the feedback so far, very interesting and different information from each of you. I am hearing that I should change my expectation to the fact that  for expression, I should read, volume, and that I will have to play around with the programming parameters of either Sonar, or my PCR-500, if I expect my expression pedal to control anything different. 

    Any more input on this subject?

    Garry 


    https://soundcloud.com/garry-kiosk
    Sonar Platinum 64-bit: Q6600 8Gb Win7 64-bit: KRK Monitors: ART MPA PRO VLA ii preamp: 3 x 500Gb internal SATA disks: Superior Drummer2: GPO4: Realstrat: Saxlab: Rapture: Dimension Pro: Ozone 4: Edirol SPS-660: PCR-500 MIDI controller: Korg PadKontrol: Fender / Gibson / Yamaha / Ibanez guitars:Guitar Rig 5: Dual 22" Monitors: Mapex Drums, Sabian AAX cymbals: Alesis DM5 Pro Kit: SE Electronics and Shure Mics: Mathmos Lava Lamp (40W)
    #5
    HeatherHaze
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 334
    • Joined: 2005/07/05 09:35:40
    • Location: Washington DC
    • Status: offline
    Re:Expression Pedal only acting as volume pedal is this right ? 2012/06/09 16:47:49 (permalink)
    Any more input on this subject?

     
    It's normal for a (so-called) expression pedal to send MIDI CC7 (volume).  Usually--I don't know if this is the case here--there's a way to reprogram the pedal to send an alternate CC.  If that IS the case, other common parameters to control might be CC11 (expression), CC1 (modulation), or CC2 (breath control) to name a few. 
     
    As Tom mentioned, you can also use the MIDI Learn function on most controls to set them up for remote control via pedal (or any other MIDI device).  One thing to watch out for, if you set a particular control to respond to the pedal, other tracks can still get the CC7 message and interpret it as volume.  In other words, you may want to make sure your other MIDI tracks are NOT set to OMNI, unless you also want to control their volume at the same time.

    )-|-( HeatherHaze
    http://heatherhaze.com/

    "This will be our reply to violence: to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." ~ Leonard Bernstein

    Cakewalk by Bandlab
    Studio One 3.5, Cubase 9.5
    Intel Core i7  8700, 32Gb RAM
    Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
    V-Studio VS-700
    Slate Raven MTi2
    Windows 10 Professional 64-bit
    ...and a whole bunch of other stuff.
    #6
    Jump to:
    © 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1