FEATURE REQUESTS - Unimpressed with X1 - Where is the Upgrade?

I've just installed Sonar X1d as an upgrade from Sonar 5 and I am rather disappointed. I can't believe how few improvements have been made over the years since I last upgraded Sonar. I expected a lot more in the way of productivity enhancements. Worse still, a couple of features have actually disappeared or are now slower to use than before. Apart from the ability to group clips together, which I believe was added in Sonar 6, I don't feel that upgrading to X1 has provided me with any advantages over Sonar 5 at all. In fact I've even had to buy a bigger monitor because the new Skylight interface is a pain to use on anything less than 1920x1080.
 
I should point out that I've not even looked at the MIDI side of X1 yet, just audio, I don't use use MIDI as much as I used to. Please forgive me and let me know if any of these features are actually present and I just haven't noticed. I was sort of expecting to find stuff like this in Sonar by now. It would be nice to see most of these suggestions implemented in X1e.
 
At this moment in time it's looking like I've just paid for a downgrade.
 
Feature Requests...
 
A. ability to swap loop markers with jump markers so playback can be made to skip over the selection instead of looping.
 
B. similar to above but more sophisticated... ability to attach simple jump instructions to markers to facilitate non-linear playback. Ideally this would use clickable lists of the existing markers. There should be a number of (or unlimited) rows available. By selecting "verse1" in row 1 for marker "A", the first time the playback reaches marker "A" playback will jump to the marker called "verse1".  Assuming "verse 1" is before "A" then the second time "A" comes around playback will jump to any marker selected in row 2 etc...etc..  If there is no marker in the next row, playback continues normally.
 
C. Saving a large and complex project file can take a long time. Because I have lost work in the past I save all the time and use autosaves but all thise saves are really slowing things down. The CWP file I'm working on at the moment is already 400 MB and it will no doubt grow more. I have to stop working (Sonar stops responding) for about 2-3 minutes while it saves, it is no fun! A solution to this problem would be an incremental save option that creates a file to store only changes since the previous full save. In the event of a system crash or whatever these files could be merged with the last full save to produce an up to date project file. Not only could this make both automatic and manual saves, and hence workflow, faster but it would put less strain on the storage media as well as the operator. Assuming you don't experience a crash or whatever, when you're ready you can save the whole project while you take a break.
 
D. On previous versions, if nothing was armed for recording the on-screen record button was greyed out. Now it looks the same reagardless. The rec button on the mix module changes but not on the transport panel. Please can we have that useful visual feedback again.
 
E. On previous versions you could right-click and add a volume or pan envelope to an audio clip with the selector tool and edit the envelope directly without changing tools. It seems that now you have to switch the entire track over to a clip automation mode. For some reason, on the 64 bit version just opening the menu to select the track mode is slow, and you have to then leave that mode before you can do almost anything else with that track. Can we please have the simple ability to directly modify envelopes on an audio clip. Maybe the pen tool can be used for this. I actually thought that's what it was for on audio tracks but it doesn't seem to serve any purpose at all.
 
F. The left hand side of the of the track strip is a waste of valuable screen space. Please move everything below track number/trackname to the left. Put the peak count digits with the meter when using a horizontal meter. We don't need 2 icons in each track strip, one still remains even when you choose 'no icons'!
 
G. Let's have a much better control bar and track control manager that lets you rearrange the layout and sizes of the control bar and track controls. I'd like to choose between 3 or 4 different button sizes for all buttons, and controls like 'track volume' could have different styles to choose from. Selected controls could be arranged on a grid and could be dragged around and the layouts could be saved as presets. The ability to have two control bars would be nice. Perhaps one for tools and views and the other for controls/transport/markers etc. The tool-toolbar could be made to be a pop-up beside to the cursor when right- or double-clicking on any free area. I'm yet to be convinced that the Skylight reduces the number of necessary trips to the toolbar or keyboard.
 
H. There's more wasted screen space.. The tiny disk monitor/performance percentages display on older versions was great. Like many of the controls on X1 it is much bigger than it needs to be.
 
 
Please fix this bug too... In X1 x64 most attempts at slip editing an audio clip (time stretching a portioned off clip) causes the clip to disappear (visually and audibly), on the 2 occasions when I tried that it didn't disappear the clip jumped to the right on the timeline instead. Bouncing as a new clip first seems to be a successful workaround. 32 bit version doesn't seem to suffer from this issue.
 
And another note... I'm using using Windows 7 64 bit Ultimate yet the 64 bit version of X1 seems slower and clunkier than the 32 bit version. I find this rather odd! Come on Cakewalk/Roland or whoever calls the shots, I paid for an upgrade, please give me one.

Gusfmm


Why didn't you try it before you purchased it?

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Web-Trial.aspx

I'm curious -- do you think his comments are untrue?  Or do you think his comments warrant some attenion on the part of CW?


I don'see how trying - or not trying the demo -  would somehow negate his opinion/feedback about X1?


i personally thoughtt the OP made some good points with respect to features.


I have and use X1 almost daily, so I'm a supporter (though I'm not a fanboy for any company these days) and I felt some of the Op's comments merit thought and the op had some good ideas.


Is there something in paarticular you disagree with?

I found that reading Garrigus' book on X1 was very useful in helping me understand the features more...

http://www.garrigus.com/pwrbkinf.asp?BookID=13

trimph1


I found that reading Garrigus' book on X1 was very useful in helping me understand the features more...

http://www.garrigus.com/pwrbkinf.asp?BookID=13

So far there have been more resources for learning this version of Sonar than any others as far as I can tell and all have generally been uniformly pretty good.  Scott's book, the Groove3 videos (now numbering 3 if I recall), and Craig Anderton's videos.  Even the Cakewalk made videos have been useful for getting information about the various features and tools.

All that I read (and I must admit I read about a third of it) seems due entirely to unfamiliarity with X1 and not to a lack of features.

 
That's what I got out of the portion that I read as well.  There wasn't much that hasn't already been said since X1 was released, particularly in regards to the size of the UI.   For me, it took a while to get used to the "bigness" of the Control Bar, but I do like it now.  I occasionally use Studio One, and find the smaller UI components more difficult to handle at times after using X1.   It's simply a tradeoff IMHO.
 
There may be other valid issues that I didn't get, but the Firefox "big block of text" limitation of this forum makes my eyes go blurry.  
 

guitartrek - Thanks for the heads-up on the Firefox issue. Fixed with IE
 
Re. videos: I know what I want to achieve and if my years of experience with Sonar and as a software developer and a musician combined with the manual can't tell me how to do something quickly and efficiently there is a problem. Anyway I spent all my money on the upgrade and a new monitor and all my spare time installing software patches

A V Man.... Please use this so that Cake will actually see and consider your requests. They have said many times that they miss a lot of stuff on the user forums and even if they see it, the person or people who can make a difference may never see it. You have good ideas. IF you use this form for them, then you can be sure that the bakers will actually see and consider... http://www.cakewalk.com/s...ct/featurerequest.aspx

"Please fix this bug too... In X1 x64 most attempts at slip editing an audio clip (time stretching a portioned off clip) causes the clip to disappear (visually and audibly), on the 2 occasions when I tried that it didn't disappear the clip jumped to the right on the timeline instead. Bouncing as a new clip first seems to be a successful workaround. 32 bit version doesn't seem to suffer from this issue."

If you want an answer to that, use this: http://www.cakewalk.com/s...act/problemreport.aspx or it will go unnoticed by Cake.


Thanks... people like you help us all.

Julien

Jind


Billy,

I do think all concerns are valid, but I'll also admit that when I read it I had the same question that Gusfmm had, perhaps I would have left of the "Why" and left it at "It might have been worthwhile trying out the demo prior to committing to buy it" as if a demo is available I always demo something before hitting the "But Now" button.  I very rarely rely upon others statements about any product I can try before buying as much of what we see here on the forums can be very opinion based but I'm not discounting the fact that opinions matter, but personal opinion probably matters more.

John also has a pretty good point that those new to Sonar with X1 seem much more likely to embrace it fully as they don't miss what they never had and/or they have developed their methods or working from X1 and it just seems natural to them.  I started in the real DAW world with home studio 6 and it's still just a hobby for me so there is no pressure with clients and such that may be the reason others have for quick solutions to problems that pop up or the need to fully understand X1 very rapidly.  Hell, I'm still learning new things each day even thought I have my workflow pretty much maximized for my methods.

For me, X1D Producer Expanded has been my favorite version of Sonar yet, but that's still just my opinion and not one shared by all, nor should it be as we all use tools for different reasons and in different ways.

Jind, I agree that John makes a good point about how the "new/er" users might initially react, etc.  But in a way, that's also agood albeit different barometer. Not unlike  time capsules showing how things were and how things are, so to speak.


But like you, I find opinions - including my own - interesting but not always useful lol.

av,how long did you use x1d before making this thread?
(you have some great ponts as well)

A V Man
 
C. Saving a large and complex project file can take a long time. Because I have lost work in the past I save all the time and use autosaves but all thise saves are really slowing things down. The CWP file I'm working on at the moment is already 400 MB and it will no doubt grow more.
 

Wow, 400 Mb. The biggest I have (so far including midi) is around 4 MB - am I a small player with 33 tracks (incl midi) ?

Cheers,
Jerry

PS : no slight on you AV Man, just asking.

You've got some great ideas A V man.  Some of those I've handed in as feature requests.

As a fellow software developer I must admit I really like X1 despite all the issues.  The way I see it, is they re-wrote a lot of this software from the ground up.  Sure, they used a lot of stuff from before, like most of the antiquated dialogue boxes (why would you want to copy markers, tempo changes, and automation by default in the copy dialogue box?)   Like John said this is like a brand new software package, and they are still like on version one. 

For my work flow - X1 has saved considerable keystrokes and is much better at window management.  That's the reason I like it so much better than the older versions.  But that's just me - you may use the software much differently.

What I would love is Track Folders in the Console view.  The other thing is to not have a "great divide" between tracks and busses.  I may set up for example my power guitars in a certain way that involves a couple audio tracks and a couple of busses.  To me when editing, the tracks and busses should be right next to eachother - All I'm doing is feeding the audio output of one track into another track.  And because I'm doing this, the receiving track must be considered a "buss".  And therefore, whether I'm in consolve view or track view, I have to jump back and forth, and scroll the tracks and the busses to get them into view.   The whole Tracks / Busses thing is because of the old hardware mixing boards which had to be like that, although with inserts you could get around it.  The great thing about software is we can do anything.  Why keep this great divide?

And don't forget Screen Sets!!

I see where you're coming from John, actually I am aware of pan laws. Or 64 bit wav file support. FX chains. ProChannel. Skylight. Audiosnap. Slip Stretching audio. Step Sequencer. The Matrix. etc.  I've been bombarded with emails weekly from Calkewalk touting all the new features, it's why I haven't upgrade till now. Funnily enough I've never been tempted by any of them, the don't seem to fit in with what I want to do. Everyone has different needs and desires. e.g. ( guitartrek note)  I can't understand why anyone would want and on screen representation of a mixing desk that A. you can't operate with two hands  and B. has vertical track divisions when your graphical representation of the track content is horizontal. The whole 'pretend hardware' paradigm seems a bit silly to me. Take the ProChannel.. all those of knobs just to adjust the line on an eq curve which could and to its credit 'can' be adjusted with a mouse, but each to their own - I suppose, if you're going to use genuine hardware that the graphics are modelling then practicing with the software is going to be useful training but at the end of the day its all about the sound and the the shortest route to achieving it. I have a couple of plugins that look like a windows 3 dialog box but they sound wicked and get the job done. Of course, lots of graphically simulated knobs, switches, meters lights, textured surfaces etc. will always sell better but to me the primary difficulty with DAWs has always been having as much info on the screen as possible ...  big buttons, clunky interfaces, logos and wasted space... X1 has them all and now needs a screen set manager because you can't fit all the stuff you need on one screen.

You really have good points AV...

I agree with the misusage of sreen space and/or the ability to edit it... The icons stuff...

Well, to be short, almost everything...

You should post your equipment specs in your signature so we know what you have.