Fantom VS Low Ouput Volume

Hello everyone,
 
Has anybody else noticed the output level of the Fantom VS seems on the weak side?  With the synth volume at unity (0), MIDI volume at 101, and the patch volume full up at 127 in the editor, I'm only peaking at about -6dB in the Sonar track--and that's if I'm pounding the keys.  Compared to softsynths like Dimension Pro, it is a far weaker signal.  I normally have to attenuate Dimension Pro and others, but the Fantom just can't compete.
Also, the quality of the sounds don't seem up to snuff, either.  They sound a bit thin and tinny, to my ears.  It could simply be the lower output, but...that's still a problem. 
 
Is this normal?  Is there a secret trick for boosting the Fantom VS output (pre-Sonar)?  I know I can just boost the fader, but that isn't really an ideal solution.  The gain on the instrument track doesn't work.  I always like to leave some headroom on MIDI volume so I have somewhere to go when mixing instruments. 
 
Any ideas?
 
Thanks!

yeah you're right the fantom is very low when you play just one midi channel but when you start to stack more channels (up to 16) then the volume increase more and more.

I think it behave like this on purpose cause there's only 2 audio channels output and some headroom may be needed not to exceed peak level when you start to stack a lot of voices and play them simultaneously.

By the way, there is one tab in the fantom editor (can't remember the exact one, the channel is selected with a slider-like control) that allow you to configure which midi channel will trigger which part. This way you can set your midi controller to a whatever midi channel and assign this channel to trigger multiple parts in the fantom.  This should take care of the volume or weakness you're experiencing.

Since the Fantom is hardware it cannot be treated like a soft synth. Dimension pro is awesome and so is Rapture or z3ta+, but they have almost infinite headroom (64 bits for the x64 synths in Sonar ) so they can run near 0db and still be stacked without being distorted internally. The fantom is probably weaker to avoid distorting the internal analog components when stacking sounds.

It's not a scientifical answer and if someone wish to correct me that is absolutely fine;)

I think it behave like this on purpose cause there's only 2 audio channels output and some headroom may be needed not to exceed peak level when you start to stack a lot of voices and play them simultaneously.

 
That makes sense.  I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one to notice this, in any case.  And thanks for the tips! 
 
I'm absolutely loving all these amazing synths.  I hardly know where to begin, there's so much to soak in.  The amount of pro-quality content included with X1 Production Suite and the VS-700 is staggering, almost too good to be true.  Between the Fantom VS, Dimension Pro, Z3TA+2, Rapture, Beatscape...plus my trusty old JV-1010 (w/Orchestral expansion) and new EastWest collection...there's pretty much nothing I can't do. 
 
Not that I don't still WANT more...but that's just everyday gear-lust, right?  :)

be I'm off base here but I own a fantom xr (which I believe has many of the same patches as the VS) and a Kurzweil PC3x. When playing the synths in realtime to produce audio the signal is much hotter when using balanced leads on bth synths. Most Roland stuff accomodates balanced inputs/outputs.

 
That's true, but the Fantom VS is contained wholly within the VS-700R interface.  No cables are involved; the output goes straight into Sonar.  But thanks for the suggestion!  :-)  That's definitely a good tip for external synths.  Balanced cables make a big difference, for sure.

Hey Craig,
 
I didn't think the Fantom went through the pre-amp section?  There's no signal chain to speak of, it's straight from the Fantom into Sonar.  Anyway...the signal isn't so low I'd suspect -20dB pad were set.  It just seems lower than I expected, with no real way of boosting the signal short of tweaking MIDI CC7 or CC11, both of which I'd prefer not to crank all the way up.  I use Expression for...well, expression...and CC7 for mixing.  If they're maxed to begin with, there's nowhere to go but down.  Definitely not ideal.  
 
It's not unusable, by any means, I just find it annoying from a Signal-to-Noise ration perspective.  I'll have to simply lower everything else in the mix (which I'd have to do anyway, but maybe not as much).  We'll see how it goes, I guess. 
 
Or maybe I'm just crazy.  Entirely possible.  :)

you can activate the prochannel bus compressor (change the default one to pc4k) on the fantom output with treashold full clockwise (this won't compress the sound), boost the output level and activate the echo input. Should not add any perceptible latency and plenty of potential level.

 
That's a really good idea, thank you.  :) 

There are no -20dB pads on the Fantom.  The mic pre section contains just the eight analog inputs. 
 
Also, if you set up the Fantom as an analog synth (i.e. an audio track w/input set to Stereo VS-700 Fantom VS, selecting patches via separate MIDI track), the gain control on the Fantom audio track does nothing.  Of course, the volume fader works and can boost the signal as much as 6dB.  But a mixer isn't supposed to be an amplifier, and even though the Fantom sounds very clean...it really should have more gain (and ipso facto a higher SNR) before getting into Sonar. 
 
Why do I even care, if it sounds okay anyway?  Because I wouldn't be "me" if I didn't.  :) 
 
Setting velocity to 127 is also unacceptable, as that destroys any possibility for dynamics.  Same for CC11 and CC7.  Note, however, even with volume at 127, expression at 127, and really stomping on the keys...I'm still only peaking at about -5dB on a basic piano patch.  Call me crazy, but that seems out of whack to me.  That should be burying the needle (so to speak).  Am I wrong?
 
I think the idea of using the ProChannel compressor to boost the signal will work fine for me, however, when I need it.  And it was correct that if you add more and more voices to the Fantom, the lower gain will actually work out fine in the final mix.  But often I may use just one or two voices in a project, and if I need those voices to shine then I have the choice of somehow amplifying them after the fact, or lowering everything else in the mix to match.  Both choices are perfectly workable, but neither are ideal. 
 
I expect nothing less than total sonic utopia (especially for the clams this stuff cost).  :)

Once more, what's your hookup, routing, inputs and outputs consist of. It matters.

 
Respectfully, no, it doesn't matter.  You know I'm talking about the Fantom VS, built into the VS-700R, right?  There is no routing, outside of Sonar.  The input is MIDI.  The output is an audio track in Sonar.  No hookup, no pre-amps, no pads, no wires, etc.  Here's how I usually set up the Fantom:
 
MIDI Controller -> MIDI Track in Sonar -> Fantom VS -> Audio Track in Sonar.  
 
I can also set it up as:
 
MIDI Controller -> Instrument Track -> Fantom VS Editor. 
 
I find it a little easier to load patches via MIDI and use the Fantom as a hardware synth.   But either way, there's still no "routing" to speak of, unless you want to know my whole system layout (which is irrelevant--everything else works beautifully).
 
What is your output peaking at from the Fantom with, for instance, the first piano patch ("So True..."), MIDI CC7 and CC11 at max, full velocity, output fader at unity, hitting a middle C (just one note)? 
 
Mine's peaking at about -11.  If I bang out a full chord I can get up to -5.0.  If I mash the keys horribly, I can get up to about -2.0.  But obviously, that's not how I prefer to play.  ;) 
 
I do appreciate your willingness to help.

Four years later, and I'm still astounded by this bewildering display of simultaneous ineptitude and arrogance.  What a twit.