FirmamentFX
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 250
- Joined: 2007/09/17 20:32:10
- Status: offline
Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
I don't think this is currently do-able in Sonar, but IMHO it would be very useful to be able to have "control" channels to have control over several parameters on different channels.
Say you have 8 channels:
- Violin (Library 1)
- Violin (Library 2)
- Viola (Library 1)
- Viola (Library 2)
- Cello (Library 1)
- Cello (Library 2)
- Bass (Library 1)
- Bass (Library 2)
I would like to group them in various ways using control channels:
- All Library 1
- All Library 2
- All Violins
- All Violas
- All Celli
- All Basses
These control channels would adjust the *relative* levels of these audio tracks.
Cheers!
Martin
|
nprime
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2423
- Joined: 2004/08/16 19:19:49
- Location: Vancouver
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 16:09:52
(permalink)
I may not be understanding you correctly, but couldn't you do this with busses?
Listen Sonar 5PE Intel DP35DP, E6750, 3 GB, 80GB/320 GB Scope (6 DSP) w/A16 interface PadKontrol, Legacy Series MS20, EZDrummer.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 16:12:51
(permalink)
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 16:29:59
(permalink)
VCA = violin, cello, bias?
|
nprime
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2423
- Joined: 2004/08/16 19:19:49
- Location: Vancouver
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 16:36:27
(permalink)
VCA is "Voltage Controlled Amplitude" to me. Don't quite understand what the OP intended.
Listen Sonar 5PE Intel DP35DP, E6750, 3 GB, 80GB/320 GB Scope (6 DSP) w/A16 interface PadKontrol, Legacy Series MS20, EZDrummer.
|
MatsonMusicBox
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
- Total Posts : 879
- Joined: 2008/07/09 10:56:31
- Location: Hanover, PA
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 16:46:49
(permalink)
VCA (Voltage Controlled Amplifier) Groups are common on SSL and some other desks for grouping channels under one control. I think you could pretty much accomplish the same thing between busses and groups in SONAR.
post edited by MatsonMusicBox - 2009/03/16 16:53:24
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 16:54:30
(permalink)
where did SSL dream up that idea?
|
fooman
Max Output Level: -63 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1382
- Joined: 2006/06/26 14:47:44
- Location: Ontario, Canada
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 16:57:21
(permalink)
I never understood the need for this in a DAW.
Busses work well.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 17:32:07
(permalink)
I never learned about SONAR's groups...
This quote from WIKI seems to apply to basic mix routing and so if in SONAR groups provided this it seems worth knowing about:
"A benefit of VCA sub-group is that since it is directly affecting the gain level of each channel, changes to a VCA sub-group level affect not only the channel level, but also all of the levels sent to any post fader mixes. With traditional audio sub-groups, the sub-group master fader only affected the level going into the main mix and does not affect the level going to the post fader mixes. Consider the case of an instrument feeding a sub-group and a post fader mix. If you set the sub-group master fader to zero, you would no longer hear the instrument itself, but you would still hear it as part of the post fader mix, perhaps a reverb or chorus effect."
Does anyone know if SONARs groups work the same way?
|
MatsonMusicBox
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
- Total Posts : 879
- Joined: 2008/07/09 10:56:31
- Location: Hanover, PA
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 17:36:19
(permalink)
It's actually really flexible as you can something belong to multiple groups at the same time - I think you can get "most" of the way there with groups and busses in SONAR. VCA technology is the standard grouping methodology in high end desks.
Let's see taking the OP's original requirements - he could:
Put all of library 1 on buss A
Put all of library 2 on buss B
Group Violins together
Group Violas together
Group Cellos together
Groups Basses together
I actually think that covers it per his original request.
|
nprime
Max Output Level: -51 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2423
- Joined: 2004/08/16 19:19:49
- Location: Vancouver
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 17:40:05
(permalink)
This gives me a deja vu feeling. I seem to remember a thread where there was an aud.ini setting that changed whether or not mute affected post fader busses, could there be a related setting that would make the faders behave like the above quoted VCA mode?
post edited by nprime - 2009/03/16 17:47:01
Listen Sonar 5PE Intel DP35DP, E6750, 3 GB, 80GB/320 GB Scope (6 DSP) w/A16 interface PadKontrol, Legacy Series MS20, EZDrummer.
|
FirmamentFX
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 250
- Joined: 2007/09/17 20:32:10
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 18:40:55
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MatsonMusicBox
It's actually really flexible as you can something belong to multiple groups at the same time - I think you can get "most" of the way there with groups and busses in SONAR. VCA technology is the standard grouping methodology in high end desks.
Let's see taking the OP's original requirements - he could:
Put all of library 1 on buss A
Put all of library 2 on buss B
Group Violins together
Group Violas together
Group Cellos together
Groups Basses together
I actually think that covers it per his original request.
You managed to explain it far better than I could...! Yes this would essentially be it - I had never thought of it that way before. Thanks! I was getting hung up on the fact that you couldn't assign controls to multiple groups. I've just come from using a PM1/D on a large gig, and before that I was using a Euphonix console on a mixdown. We couldn't have done either the show or the premix without VCAs/DCAs. It just semed such a flexible way to route things - or more specifically, not route things, because the VCA channels do not carry audio in themselves, but act as a controller for other channels, for each of which you can assign the response curve - or envelope - of the VCA to the channel. Given the growing situation where people mix multiple sample libraries for big orchestral projects, this appears on NONE of the current DAW systems (with the exception of Nuendo *with* the Euphonix console - but that console costs tens of thousands!) Martin
|
dontletmedrown
Max Output Level: -58 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1722
- Joined: 2006/09/09 13:52:26
- Location: Camarillo, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 18:57:04
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: FirmamentFX
Given the growing situation where people mix multiple sample libraries for big orchestral projects, this appears on NONE of the current DAW systems (with the exception of Nuendo *with* the Euphonix console - but that console costs tens of thousands!)
Martin
Here's my cue... ready??? Pro Tools HD has it! Ok, I gotta run now before the Cakewalk cult lynches me...
|
FirmamentFX
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 250
- Joined: 2007/09/17 20:32:10
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 19:04:00
(permalink)
Haha!! How did I know that one was coming?  Yeah... but Tools is a top end system (whether it deserves to be or not is another matter, and another topic entirely) - and the hardware dependant nature of it - the HD system anyway, which is really the only worthwhile one (and native RTAS but no VST support) means it will always be one step above and beyond. I can have a 3 PC system with Sonar, 32 outputs from each farm machine into 64 in the main box, for about £4000. Tools HD doesn't even come close to that Value. The more I think about it, a simple way to achieve this would be to allow each control in Sonar to be assigned to multiple groups. Sure, there is a certain complexity to the logic of the controls (a control that is part of Group A and Group C for example, when being controlled as part of Group C, must not alter any other Group A controls) but nothing that the bakers couldn't work out I'm sure ;) That, along with MIDI sends, would push Sonar into a real top orchestral scoring workstation (again, and as always, IMHO!). Martin
|
AndyW
Max Output Level: -45.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2956
- Joined: 2005/10/06 17:13:00
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 19:27:01
(permalink)
Maybe I am misunderstanding the question but the answer as I see it is one word....Groups. Press F1 and learn how to create/assign/rename automation groups.
|
middleaudio
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 23
- Joined: 2009/02/03 19:14:09
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 19:57:56
(permalink)
Absolutely "groups". Learn how to use them... Love them.
|
Dizzi45Z
Max Output Level: -70 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1040
- Joined: 2005/10/26 17:00:20
- Location: Orem, Utah
- Status: offline
RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2009/03/16 21:30:48
(permalink)
I'll throw in my vote for VCA's too. VCA's are very nice and different than using a bus.
This is because if you turn down the volume of a bus, all of the effects routed out of the sends on those individual tracks that route to the bus will lose their relationship to the dry signal.
For example. Let's say you have all your drum tracks routed to your drum bus. Your snare track probably has a different amount of reverb on it then your Kick and etc., thus you have the reverb sends on the individual tracks, not on the bus. Well, if you turn your bus all the way down, notice you still hear all the reverb from the auxillary sends of the individual drum tracks. So, if you turn up the volume on the drum bus, the drums will have less reverb. If you turn the volume down on the drum bus, it will have more reverb. This is usually the exact opposite of what you really want.
A VCA is really nice because you control the actual volume of all of the individual tracks with one fader. Because of this, the auxillary sends maintain their relationship with the dry output.
You can use groups, but that can become very messy when you are automating volume changes on 12 or so drum tracks. Plus, there will be times that you might just want the snare louder, or the toms louder and etc. This leads to really messy automation that a VCA can definitely make easier and cleaner.
|
Vlar
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 189
- Joined: 2003/11/11 11:28:16
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/03/07 12:57:56
(permalink)
Yes, having a VCA-type function to control groups of faders, without actually passing audio through a separate buss AND have this to where you could automate it would be great.
post edited by Vlar - 2016/03/07 13:39:14
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/03/07 13:24:58
(permalink)
Both Samplitude and Studio one have VCA faders. I have not found a use for them yet. I have both of those DAWs as will as Sonar. Then I don't use groups much either. I do use buses though.
The interesting thing that was posted above about sends being not well controlled with buses v VCA is a little bit interesting but may not be much of a problem in reality. Buses can be a source for a send too. That seems to me to handle the issue described above well enough.
In the end it wouldn't hurt Sonar to have VCA faders as an option. I just think their usage as being a requirement is a little exaggerated. Nice to have but not a requirement.
|
Vlar
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 189
- Joined: 2003/11/11 11:28:16
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/03/07 13:29:27
(permalink)
I see how you can write-enable automation for the fader/control surface to where moving one fader controls the group and writes the automation moves, but how would you get a VCA-type function, using just the automation lanes, nodes, etc.? It looks like this just changes the particular track you make the changes to, not the other tracks is the group.
|
fitzj
Max Output Level: -61 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1487
- Joined: 2005/10/13 11:56:37
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/03/07 13:31:51
(permalink)
I see presonus has it as well. Im running to.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/03/07 13:38:14
(permalink)
You must not have read post 19.
|
trtzbass
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 150
- Joined: 2014/01/01 13:30:07
- Location: London
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/03/07 14:00:35
(permalink)
Not game changing but definitely a nice option to have. I constantly use buses and having one channel assigned to two different groups would be very useful
Jordan Brown - he tried to play bass www.jordanbrown.co.uk twitter.com/trtzbass trgmachine.bandcamp.com
|
Sijel
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 487
- Joined: 2009/11/29 21:21:56
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/04/19 11:35:57
(permalink)
John
The interesting thing that was posted above about sends being not well controlled with buses v VCA is a little bit interesting but may not be much of a problem in reality. Buses can be a source for a send too. That seems to me to handle the issue described above well enough.
In the end it wouldn't hurt Sonar to have VCA faders as an option. I just think their usage as being a requirement is a little exaggerated. Nice to have but not a requirement.
The issue with Send relative volumes is a frequent issue. I do individual drum processing as mentioned by Dizzi45Z in #17. Usually, things are fine...until I want to make a significant change in the drum presence. NOT the end of the world but it's a hassle. A VCA fader would definitely help out. I also recently had this balance issue in a string quartet arrangement I made for a remix of Little Empire's song "Bullet" : https://soundcloud.com/user-581876462/bullet-reimagined-iThe string arrangement is a critical part of this slower bluesy-ballad version. (The original is a faster alt-pop-rock tune that can hear if you search on Amazon / iTunes.) I used two sets of strings quartets as the OP mentioned. Rebalancing the individual tracks was not much fun and a VCA fader would've been nice. There is another use case: heavily layered rock guitars. I love Brian May's use of these in many Queen mega-hits and love coming up with my own homages to his style. VCA faders would really help out there as well since he's essentially making jazz-trios or orchestral arrangements using many guitar layers. Will I run from Sonar cuz I don't have VCA faders? Not likely. But, as you alluded, it would be a nice added feature that most other world-class DAWs deliver. (BTW - having the same features as other DAWs helps me move / migrate mixes between DAWs that other folks use. Also, when I see a technique, I can easily adopt (steal?! LOL) them and use them in Sonar.)
post edited by Sijel - 2016/04/19 12:02:39
Microsoft Surface Book w/ Surface dock, dual 24-inch HD displays,
Sonar Platinum, THD 4, GuitarRig, Amplitube, (Kontakt4), Garritan PO, Trillian Bass 1.3, Roland Octa-Capture, Waves Gold & various Waves, PSP and T-Racks plugins.KRK Rokit6, Lefty Guitars & Bass, racks/pedals galore and many other fun things.
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/04/24 12:24:29
(permalink)
Dizzi45Z
For example. Let's say you have all your drum tracks routed to your drum bus. Your snare track probably has a different amount of reverb on it then your Kick and etc., thus you have the reverb sends on the individual tracks, not on the bus. Well, if you turn your bus all the way down, notice you still hear all the reverb from the auxillary sends of the individual drum tracks. So, if you turn up the volume on the drum bus, the drums will have less reverb. If you turn the volume down on the drum bus, it will have more reverb. This is usually the exact opposite of what you really want.
Couldn't you group the reverb bus output with the drum bus output so the amount of reverb tracks the drum bus level?
|
pwalpwal
Max Output Level: -43 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3249
- Joined: 2015/01/17 03:52:50
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/04/24 13:18:01
(permalink)
Anderton
Dizzi45Z
For example. Let's say you have all your drum tracks routed to your drum bus. Your snare track probably has a different amount of reverb on it then your Kick and etc., thus you have the reverb sends on the individual tracks, not on the bus. Well, if you turn your bus all the way down, notice you still hear all the reverb from the auxillary sends of the individual drum tracks. So, if you turn up the volume on the drum bus, the drums will have less reverb. If you turn the volume down on the drum bus, it will have more reverb. This is usually the exact opposite of what you really want.
Couldn't you group the reverb bus output with the drum bus output so the amount of reverb tracks the drum bus level?
Anderton
Dizzi45Z
For example. Let's say you have all your drum tracks routed to your drum bus. Your snare track probably has a different amount of reverb on it then your Kick and etc., thus you have the reverb sends on the individual tracks, not on the bus. Well, if you turn your bus all the way down, notice you still hear all the reverb from the auxillary sends of the individual drum tracks. So, if you turn up the volume on the drum bus, the drums will have less reverb. If you turn the volume down on the drum bus, it will have more reverb. This is usually the exact opposite of what you really want.
Couldn't you group the reverb bus output with the drum bus output so the amount of reverb tracks the drum bus level?
this is a Feature Request for VCAs! not a "how do i..." :-)
|
pwalpwal
Max Output Level: -43 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3249
- Joined: 2015/01/17 03:52:50
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/04/24 13:21:30
(permalink)
John
You must not have read post 19.
maybe he did read post #19, but didn't agree? just because you don't find a use for them doesn't mean anyone else doesn't! and where do you get the time to use 3 (or more?) different DAWs to any seriously deep level, and still post so much on the forums??
|
mikedocy
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1157
- Joined: 2007/05/09 23:00:37
- Location: Cleveland, Ohio
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/04/25 21:49:30
(permalink)
If nothing else, VCA channels should be added to Sonar simply to keep up with the other daws.
Competition is everything. I can see someone choosing another daw, because of that one feature, because it provides them with a familiar workflow.
Perhaps, when someone sees it available in another daw, they think that Sonar is lacking in features. This is what marketing guys thrive on.
Pro Tools native got it last year. It used to be only available on the HD systems.
Cubase has it.
Studio One Pro has it.
|
lfm
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2216
- Joined: 2005/01/24 05:35:33
- Location: Sweden
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/04/26 04:54:51
(permalink)
mikedocy
If nothing else, VCA channels should be added to Sonar simply to keep up with the other daws.
Competition is everything. I can see someone choosing another daw, because of that one feature, because it provides them with a familiar workflow.
Perhaps, when someone sees it available in another daw, they think that Sonar is lacking in features. This is what marketing guys thrive on.
Pro Tools native got it last year. It used to be only available on the HD systems.
Cubase has it.
Studio One Pro has it.
To add to that: Logic has it, and Reaper 5 too. Samplitude ProX2 too, but a lite version not allowing nesting. From time to time the years I spent at Cockos forum there was a riot from just a handful of people over VCA's. And there are a lot of professionals that use Reaper - and somebody made a JS script and a description how to make it happend in Reaper 4.x, but rather cumbersome. Still they introduced VCA's in Reaper 5 - probably as a you say to keep up with other daws. Sonar has pretty advanced control groupings with the non-linear options - so I think it's not such big deal to fix the sends adjustments as VCA do. Probably more work doing the nested thingy and the flexibility that comes with that. If Gibson Pro Audio are serious about that name - I think VCA's are missing to be competing with the rest. Since release of X3 I felt a determination from Cakewalk that I never saw before - and last year even raised that further. Check out youtube and search to find tuts on VCA. Some are not that good, since they give the impression same approach can be done with control grouping and are just confusing in that sense. ProTools Basic VCA's part 2 is good in giving a glimpse of grouping not only faders but any control and then a VCA master controlling that. If then automating VCA master you start getting the picture and how flexibile it is. Finally you can burn automation from VCA master into all the tracks it controls if you want. The amount of time saved in doing that is substantial - since there can be hundreds of tracks with their sends that are adjusted just right for you in a flash. Sonar has this relative trim movement(activate on control bar) of automation which is difficult to see how much you affected. Both ProTools and Cubase has a second automation curve for relative movement that can be finally burned into automation. And they have this for VCA's as well.
Cubase Pro 9 with SA2015 as backup - W7 i7 2.8GHz 16G GeForce GT 730 - RME HDSP 9632 + AI4S
|
lfm
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2216
- Joined: 2005/01/24 05:35:33
- Location: Sweden
- Status: offline
Re: RE: Feature Request - "VCA" Groups / Control Channels
2016/04/26 06:08:38
(permalink)
MatsonMusicBox
It's actually really flexible as you can something belong to multiple groups at the same time - I think you can get "most" of the way there with groups and busses in SONAR. VCA technology is the standard grouping methodology in high end desks.
Let's see taking the OP's original requirements - he could:
Put all of library 1 on buss A
Put all of library 2 on buss B
Group Violins together
Group Violas together
Group Cellos together
Groups Basses together
I actually think that covers it per his original request.
If you have any sends on those groups - you will have to see to that all the returns of those send receiving tracks are routed to the same bus as well. Look at VCA fader as a birds eye perspective fader, just altering automation levels on all assigned tracks for both volume and sends(and other controls too if you want). You can go crazy on busses and routing doing just about the same thing - or keep routing more flat to one buss level only and use VCA faders to control it all. And please note, just manually moving a fader on a track with a send, will not adjust the send to actually give you the same sound but lower. The send needs adjusting separately to keep the same sound. VCA do that properly for you - so the relative movement(called offset mode in Sonar) keep the right amount of send not to make final result more or less wet. One not bad tut on VCA for PT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgHNubKccrc Especially looking at that tut make you realize how different one scene on a video change which music goes with it. Depending on genre it may be different how eseential or helpful VCA's are - but really nice to know they are there as the project grows - like post production will maybe more than pop songs.
|