vladasyn
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Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools https://www.tracktion.com/products/waveformI got the upgrade offer from Traction for Waveform, and I reviewed some videos. It sounds and looks promising but I have no intention to abandon Sonar (was only considering it when they were talking about Mac). I produce electronic music and frequently use arpeggiators. Check out the Composition Tools on the Waveform page. It is amazing how easy it is to input Chords and Baseline in to the piano roll. This must be part of Sonar Piano Roll. How come Sonar still has no way to input chords other than writing them note by note? When I enter chords, I have to enter individual notes for each chord. For 8 measures part, I have to enter 24 notes manually. Why is there no way to just assign chords by name (Am, G, F...)? Also it would help if when note selected, all line was highlighting because it is too hard to align the note with the key- I never know where I am. It is better that C.D and E section has slightly different color than F-B section, but it would help if when I pres key on keyboard controller, the entire line would change color so I don't have to strain my eyes, trying to figure out where to insert the note. When I have to do it 24 times for 8 measures, it gets frustrating. Also as shown in Waveform video, it would be nice if the bass note of each chord was selectable to copy it in to a new track to create a bassline. https://www.tracktion.com/products/waveform Thank you.
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cyberzip
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/23 09:23:40
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Yes, I totally agree! Sonar would benefit from some midi/chord/arranger stuff that is present in other DAWs. That Waveform thing was pretty cool. :) Go to the Bakery and vote for the Chord track idea, it's the 3rd most popular right now: Chord Track for Sonar Platinum http://bakery.cakewalk.co...ack-for-Sonar-Platinum
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karhide
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/23 09:38:57
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There's some nice tools in the Pattern Generator kinda remind me of some of the tools in FLStudio.
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mettelus
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/23 10:11:41
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Especially when working with MIDI, there is a lot of room to enhance key, time signature, and chord changes - sort of a "building block mode" for rough composition. Locking out things that do not fall in key is a real nicety (especially when mouse errors are easy to come by), and that part of their "Melody" feature was pretty slick IMO. Audio is a different matter, but for MIDI, "core composition" should be a quick task.
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vladasyn
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/23 16:29:29
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I voted for it but what is it? It says, "chord track similar to the one in Cubase 7.5"- I don't know what it is in Cubase 7.5. I voted because something would be better than nothing but how would I add this post to voting? I think Waveform way is very convenient. Not that they should make it exactly the same but to implement something similar would be great. is there "add feature request" option? Edit: ok, I see there is a way to add reply. Will post it there.
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bz2838
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/23 19:06:46
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I made the chord track request a couple of years ago, I still would like to see it implemented in Splat. In Cubase, you have a chord track, you select the chord you want and when you play your keyboard, any note you play on your keyboard will be in the chord selected in the chord track.
This is especially handy for those of us who play other instruments other than keyboards. It can also be a great writing tool. It works in audio as well as midi. I still believe it would be a valuable addition to Splat and I still support the request.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/23 20:16:15
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+1 I grabbed the new Tracktion Waveform Basic recently, just for the new MIDI composition tools. I think we need to look at this as something different from a "chord track" feature for Sonar. This is different, and in some ways maybe more useful. The choice for Waveform was made after also trying demos of Cubase Elements 9 (chord track, chord assistant, and circle of fifths), and FL Studio 12 Fruity (chord tools built into the PRV). These were all $99 products that I was considering using just for their MIDI tools. Not looking to replace Sonar. But I agree that it would be nice to have more MIDI creative tools like this bundled into Sonar!  So far very happy with Waveform. It's hard not to get something going fairly quickly with this. The MIDI tracks can be exported to Sonar as MIDI files. As far as having an actual chord track at the project level, Cubase is the only program I tried that has this. Sonar should definitely add this feature. Waveform has a marker track that can be used to identify song sections or chord changes, but they are labels only and do not affect any pitches. There is a project pitch that can be used as the default in the Pattern Generator. In Waveform, the Pattern Generator lets you quickly build a track pattern type of either Arpeggio, Bassline, Chords, or Melody. You pick the key that you want to work in, then select the chord progression using a roman numeral scale degrees system. It offers popular prediction choices to be used for the next chord in the progression. Or you can go your own way in the Waveform PRV using the Chord dropdown tool to insert chord shapes that you can copy or drag around to any root note as you wish. Using keyboard shortcuts, you can invert chord up/down, and much more. FL studio does something like this, but the other MIDI features in Waveform sold me!  
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/23 21:39:25
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☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2017/04/30 08:51:08
As far as the Cubase chord track goes in Elements 9, I see that the advantages are:
The chord functions provide you with many possibilities for working with chords.
Chord Events:
1. Root note
2. Type
3. Tension
4. Bass note
The chord functions allow you to:
• Build chord progressions by adding chord events to the chord track.
• Convert chord events to MIDI.
• Use the chord track to control MIDI playback.
• Use the chord track voicing to change the pitches of your MIDI.
• Extract chord events from MIDI data to get an overview of the harmonic structure of a MIDI file.
• Record chord events with a MIDI keyboard.
> The Chord Assistant allows you to use a chord as a starting point to get suggestions for the next chord
> The Circle of Fifths mode of the Chord Assistant shows the chords in an interactive visualization of the circle of fifths.
> Voicings - determine how chord events are set up. They define the vertical spacing and order of the pitches in a chord, but also the instrumentation and genre of a musical piece. For example, a C chord can be spread over a wide range of pitches, and a pianist will choose different notes than a guitarist. The pianist may also play completely different pitches for different musical genres.
• You can set up voicing for the entire chord track in the chord track Inspector.
• You can set up voicings for individual chord events on the Voicing pop-up menu on the
info line. Voicing library allows you to select Guitar, Piano, or Basic as a voicing library.
> Scale Events - Scale events inform you which chord events fit in a specific sequence of notes that belong to
a specific root note. Cubase automatically creates scale events for your chord events.
> Chord Editing - You can apply chord events from the chord track to notes in the MIDI editor. Applies the chord events from the chord track to the selected notes in the MIDI editor. The chord event that is effective at the position of the first selected note is applied to the selected notes, which are then transposed. Only the basic chord type is applied. Tensions are not taken into account.
> Link Playback to Chord Track - the events of a MIDI loop are transposed to play back in context with the chord track. Note that you need a chord track with chord events for this. If this option is activated, and you insert a MIDI loop into the project, Follow Chord Track is automatically activated for the track.
> MIDI Editor - The note events get different colors depending on whether they match the current chord, scale, or both.
> Chord Pads - allow you to play with chords, and to change their voicings and tensions. In terms of harmonies and rhythms, they allow for a more playful and spontaneous approach to composition than the chord track functions.
You can:
• Perform with chords in realtime via a MIDI keyboard.
• Record your performance as MIDI events on a MIDI or instrument track or even on the
chord track.
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vladasyn
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 02:41:34
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☄ Helpfulby Kamikaze 2017/04/25 05:42:26
It is interesting to note that in the past, Cakewalk was known for their MIDI implementation. The Protools had no MIDI tools and was more for the live instruments recording, while Cakewalk was the best MIDI sequencer. Now it sounds like all other DAW have better MIDI editing tools and Cakewalk is behind. The Piano roll as well as Staff view are white and empty. There is nothing there. Time to catch up, since we not going Mac any longer!
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rmfegley
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 03:09:48
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I'd like to see a better, more versatile velocity scaling tool in Sonar. It's my most-used piano roll tool in FL Studio.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 03:13:57
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vladasyn
It is interesting to note that in the past, Cakewalk was known for their MIDI implementation. The Protools had no MIDI tools and was more for the live instruments recording, while Cakewalk was the best MIDI sequencer. Now it sounds like all other DAW have better MIDI editing tools and Cakewalk is behind. The Piano roll as well as Staff view are white and empty. There is nothing there. Time to catch up, since we not going Mac any longer!
Sonar has become an awesome virtual recording studio!!! But I can recall when Cakewalk was the best MIDI sequencer on Windows. I think that they are now possibly the best virtual recording studio on Windows. The Bakers need to shift focus now on bringing the MIDI features up to date!!! I have seen some comments on the forum that seem to imply that using MIDI tools is somehow cheating. I would have to respectfully disagree with that assumption. For a couple of centuries it was necessary to use paper and pen to compose music. Same with writing a book or article. Does using a word processor with spell check constitute cheating? Using the power of a computer to remove the drudgery of data entry is not cheating! Using a computer to assist with composition is simply to speed up the creative process and eliminate the manual data entry step by step. I understand that some musicians wish to simply compose offline and then use the computer as a tape recorder. But Sonar can be so much more than that. Other applications are filling that gap. Catch up please!!! I am in favor of any tools in Sonar that help with the creative phase of music making ,..
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vladasyn
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 04:13:02
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I would like to be able to draw the controllers (CC). I recorded the knob movement real time the other day for Cutoff and wanted to edit it. Went to Piano roll, and there it was, I could see it. But when I try to alter it with the pencil tool, it was jump from line to line, add unnecessary points, combine entry points together in one- nothing close to slop I needed to draw. Simple line up and down would not happen.
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vladasyn
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 04:14:37
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I can play the chords fine, but they are never exactly the same length for each note as it takes time to move the hand, so it would require Quantize. Oh, and should I start about the Quantize? That thing always masses everything up.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 17:48:07
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☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2017/04/30 08:51:44
vladasyn
I can play the chords fine, but they are never exactly the same length for each note as it takes time to move the hand, so it would require Quantize. Oh, and should I start about the Quantize? That thing always masses everything up.
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THambrecht
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 18:47:02
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When every DAW has such a feature we don't need musicans to make the songs. Then everything sounds the same. According to this feature, Dieter Bohlen worked in the 1980s. All songs sounded the same.
The special thing about music 2017 is that you do NOT work according to this scheme.
Do YOU make music, or the computer?
Still 5 years of development and a button makes the complete song.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 19:53:22
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THambrecht
When every DAW has such a feature we don't need musicans to make the songs. Then everything sounds the same. According to this feature, Dieter Bohlen worked in the 1980s. All songs sounded the same.
The special thing about music 2017 is that you do NOT work according to this scheme.
Do YOU make music, or the computer?
Still 5 years of development and a button makes the complete song.
Based on your comment I would assume that you see a computer only as a tape recorder. There's nothing wrong with that view, as Sonar is the best tape recorder I have ever used. But just because a computer can be used to create a song, it doesn't mean that all musicians want their computer to do so. Some may just want a little help with exploring creative possibilities with rhythms, or scales and chord progressions that may not be familiar. Breaking out of habits and comfort zones, etc. Good tools can help a good musician become even more productive, especially if they inspire them to create. The better music composition tools today still let you pick everything out. It just frees you from the drudgery of the data entry one note at a time. Makes transposing or inverting a breeze. Piano players can write with guitar voicings if needed, without having to learn guitar. Being a composer is different than being a player. Is an author writing a novel with a computer word processor instead of pen and ink considered to be letting the computer write the book for him???
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THambrecht
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 21:22:09
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@acab
I'm a little bit old school, because i write songs not within the DAW, I use a piano or a guitar.
Then I do the harmonies in the head and write it without any instrument on the paper. Then I record the composed song with SONAR.
When I grew up I had to use 2 tape machines (from 1975 - 1995) and recorded via ping pong from tape to tape and played one instrument after each other. You can't correct what you have recorded before. This was an other learning curve to make songs.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 22:49:14
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THambrecht
@acab
I'm a little bit old school, because i write songs not within the DAW, I use a piano or a guitar.
Then I do the harmonies in the head and write it without any instrument on the paper. Then I record the composed song with SONAR.
When I grew up I had to use 2 tape machines (from 1975 - 1995) and recorded via ping pong from tape to tape and played one instrument after each other. You can't correct what you have recorded before. This was an other learning curve to make songs.
Well the Beatles made many hits bouncing 4 tracks together, so it really is all about matching skilled artists with skilled engineers. But the music world has come a long way since then. My father was a professional musician, and I can still remember the day (back when I was knee high to a bullfrog) that the Beatles made their American debut on the Ed Sullivan show. My parents thought it was the end of Western Civilization!!! OMG!!! That's not music! Anybody can play three chords, etc.!!! BTW, I was not allowed to listen to rock music in the house or car. Now the Beatles are among the royal legacy of rock and roll artists. I'm not saying that the current popular music is good (IMHO), but it is real, and dominates the market. The way that music is made now has changed a bit over the years due to technology. I had several years of formal music training in school, but as an adult music has only been a hobby for me. I never learned to play the guitar or piano, but I bought a synthesizer over 30 years ago and electronic music has always appealed to me. Artists like Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream, Jean-Michel Jarre, Vangelis, etc., are my inspiration. The use of sequencers and arpeggiators is necessary for creating those kinds of works.
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Kev999
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/24 23:39:20
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Chords are an important part of a song's arrangement and I'm fussy about them. I almost never use the standard inversions or simple triads. I set different velocities on each of the notes, sometimes widely different. I usually don't want all the notes hitting at exactly the same time on the beat; I prefer to have them slightly early or late by different amounts. And I often like the different notes to tail off one by rather than all finish together. I wouldn't be happy with automatically generated chords.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/25 00:42:12
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Kev999
Chords are an important part of a song's arrangement and I'm fussy about them. I almost never use the standard inversions or simple triads. I set different velocities on each of the notes, sometimes widely different. I usually don't want all the notes hitting at exactly the same time on the beat; I prefer to have them slightly early or late by different amounts. And I often like the different notes to tail off one by rather than all finish together. I wouldn't be happy with automatically generated chords.
Nobody is saying that auto generated chords are a be all, end all, for creative work. Just use your imagination! That is just a starting point for your personal inspiration! Season to taste! A good MIDI editor should allow you that feature!
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vladasyn
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/28 03:49:14
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/04/28 16:58:41
THambrecht
When every DAW has such a feature we don't need musicans to make the songs. Then everything sounds the same. According to this feature, Dieter Bohlen worked in the 1980s. All songs sounded the same.
The special thing about music 2017 is that you do NOT work according to this scheme.
Do YOU make music, or the computer?
Still 5 years of development and a button makes the complete song.
OMG! Did you say Dieter Bohlen???? I love that guy. He gave me a dream and meaning in life! When I HEARD, "yOU MY hEART, YOU MY SOUL", IT WAS IT. I KNEW WHAT I WANTED TO DO WITH MY LIFE! Sorry for the caps. I was in love with his vocalist Thomas Anders for years. Inspired me to write a book and make a lot of music. I don't think their music was the same. Abacab makes good point about the type writer. I actually used to write a book by hand (About Modern Talking- no kidding- I was 15 then). And I will tell you that typing makes writing much easier. Especially the spell check and when it offers me choice of words to replace repeating words. I look at auto chords the same way as I am looking at using Word processor and spell check. Please, note that the choice of chords and arrangement is still mine. I would still have last word in decision of how I want these chords to sound. because you using different method to write the song (on piano or guitar), you have no idea how ridiculous it feels trying to enter 8 3 notes chords. 24 notes. Takes like 10 minutes, because you have to count the lines and figure out the note length. I need all my notes to start at the same time for arpeggiator to work, this is why playing them not the solution. If I could just enter "I, III, V" instead, it would be sooo much faster. I could use that time to actually create better arrangement.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/28 17:55:56
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vladasyn
If I could just enter "I, III, V" instead, it would be sooo much faster. I could use that time to actually create better arrangement.
That is the feature I like best in Waveform! For example, start a new project set to C Major. Drop in two blank MIDI clips onto separate tracks. Select the first clip, then in pattern generator select "Pattern Style: Chords" and choose I-iii-V (default setting is Key: Follow Global Track). The triad chords (Cmaj) (Emin) and (Gmaj) are inserted into the clip. Then select the second clip, but in pattern generator select "Pattern Style: Bassline" and choose I-iii-V. The root notes for (Cmaj) (Emin) and (Gmaj) are inserted into the clip. No need to copy notes from another track. You can add as many tracks as you like this way. Then say you decide to change the whole project to A Minor, or whatever, just switch the global project key in the tempo track and the generated MIDI clips follow, making the necessary chord changes to fit the MIDI clips into the new key. Or you can insert a key change into the tempo track at the current cursor position anywhere in the project timeline. [Edit: changing the project key does update the chord names in the generator, but you need to refresh the chord selection [I-iii-V] to update the MIDI notes for each step in that progression to match the new key. But if you have extended that clip to repeat many copies of that progression, that change ripples through all copies of the progression in that clip.] How cool is that??? 
post edited by abacab - 2017/04/28 18:28:12
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Cactus Music
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/28 23:35:12
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What I'd see is a tool up there with the smart tool etc called "cords"
If selected a right click would open a dialog where you chose the chord you want and plunk it on the PRV.
Even something simple like that would sometimes save me time.
Normally I play all my cords on the keyboard, but here on this computer I don't have a controller so I have to hand draw them.
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/29 00:32:37
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Cactus Music
What I'd see is a tool up there with the smart tool etc called "cords"
If selected a right click would open a dialog where you chose the chord you want and plunk it on the PRV.
Even something simple like that would sometimes save me time.
Normally I play all my cords on the keyboard, but here on this computer I don't have a controller so I have to hand draw them.
Exactly! I like the improvements that the Bakers have made recently to PRV! I'd have to say that it's becoming very usable! But the competition is providing some serious creative tools for the MIDI composer. The chord insert functions are becoming more common elsewhere. I would like to see Cakewalk catch up in this arena!
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Andy3252
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/29 01:15:51
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/04/29 01:59:35
I have to admit I took a look at Reason 9 today since they state they are now going to include VSTs in 9.5 (a free update from 9) and was amazed by their chord, scale and arpeggiator modules, would love something like that in SPlat as Music Theory isn't my forte and I get fed up keep looking at my chords in scale crib sheets. https://www.propellerheads.se/en/reason/instruments/player-devices#scales-chords I know you can get 3rd party stuff, I actually have some, but if it was inherent in the PRV or application it would be awesome. PS. I ain't going to move away from SPlat, it was just a follow up on the news about Reason and VSTs I was looking at, ahem Cheers Andy
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/29 01:59:26
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Andy3252
I have to admit I took a look at Reason 9 today since they state they are now going to include VSTs in 9.5 (a free update from 9) and was amazed by their chord, scale and arpeggiator modules, would love something like that in SPlat as Music Theory isn't my forte and I get fed up keep looking at my chords in scale crib sheets.
https://www.propellerheads.se/en/reason/instruments/player-devices#scales-chords
I know you can get 3rd party stuff, I actually have some, but if it was inherent in the PRV or application it would be awesome.
PS. I ain't going to move away from SPlat, it was just a follow up on the news about Reason and VSTs I was looking at, ahem
Cheers
Andy
I totally get what you're saying, bro!!!
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Kamikaze
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/29 02:22:12
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Cactus Music
What I'd see is a tool up there with the smart tool etc called "cords"
If selected a right click would open a dialog where you chose the chord you want and plunk it on the PRV.
Even something simple like that would sometimes save me time.
Normally I play all my cords on the keyboard, but here on this computer I don't have a controller so I have to hand draw them.
You can do this by creating a bank of cords in the browser, and dragging to the track. If you create a 'groove' clip and name in say 'Cmaj7'. (seems you need to make it a groove clip for the clip to retain it's name when dropped back in). You can then see your cord progression written on the track headers. This would mean setting up banks or chords for all the Keys. Another way, would to to name the clips IMaj7 ii7 iii7 IV7 V7 vi7 vii7b5, all for C, drop them in a transpose. Yesterday I tried setting up a having a clip with a full cord on every octave, over about 4 octaves. The goakl being that an in-assigned midi track for all the cord tones could be seen behind the track I'm working on in PRV. A faux Chord track or sorts. I think having a chord track so when you are in the PRV, you could click and hold a key with your mouse that would make midi notes snap to the cord tones, in the same way we can snap to a keep. It would make editing cords, inversions, dropped voicings etc much easier.
post edited by Kamikaze - 2017/04/29 02:53:04
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Cactus Music
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/29 03:53:54
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Well you just explained very clearly why Sonar has gotta be clunky when you need to do a workaround like that!!
Forget it.
I have a feeling this is something that will happen as Cakewalk really needs a midi makeover.
Even though I can be a 100% audio recording guy,,, I use midi a lot and always will. Midi is my roots and the PRV still is about the same as it was back in the 80"s. The smart tool is about the only "new" thing I've seen.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/30 07:20:54
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Interesting threat but a repeated discussion (there was a lot about it in the arranger track feature request) ... over there I got hit for saying I can live without a copy of what the other companies implemented because I still hope Cakewalk is cooking up something bigger (they must be as it has been mostly fixes and small improvements in recent months and it's been a while since game changers like mix recall and patch points) ...
so I'd love to see a chord/arranger track which incorporates arranging with audio involved - imagine fragments from different sources: MIDI piano + MIDI synth pad + first recorded guitar licks as WAV + a first vocal line for the chorus as WAV ... now go and arrange that into a proper concept ...
I got my hopes up for what they call ripple editing but have idea whether it goes this way
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abacab
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Re: Feature request for Piano Roll: Waveform Composition Tools
2017/04/30 23:07:51
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Rob[atSound-Rehab]
Interesting threat but a repeated discussion (there was a lot about it in the arranger track feature request) ... over there I got hit for saying I can live without a copy of what the other companies implemented because I still hope Cakewalk is cooking up something bigger (they must be as it has been mostly fixes and small improvements in recent months and it's been a while since game changers like mix recall and patch points) ...
so I'd love to see a chord/arranger track which incorporates arranging with audio involved - imagine fragments from different sources: MIDI piano + MIDI synth pad + first recorded guitar licks as WAV + a first vocal line for the chorus as WAV ... now go and arrange that into a proper concept ...
I got my hopes up for what they call ripple editing but have idea whether it goes this way
This is a great demo on how to use a chord track in Cubase to control a whole project: Using Cubase the Chord Track To Run an Arrangement
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