philz
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Moshkiae
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 16:17:35
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Hi, Ohhh well ... it's time to move on to other compounds for instruments ... ohhh well, Pt 2 ... wood was once a nice thing to have ... or use to heat up your house! I think some purists are going to cry now ... that their music is not as good with this wood instead of that wood, or that stick of mud! And in the end, the veritable secret is NOT the wood, but the hands, the mouth, the feel that a person has that can make the ugliest piece of wood, sound like ... music from the aethers. As George said once ... cry baby cry ... Times change and music moves on ... it's almost like saying that the old harpsichords sounded better 500 years ago, because their wood came from ... I doubt it! But I also like to question one's ability to play music ... because the good ones can adjust to anything that is thrown at them ... the rest ... cry!
post edited by Moshkiae - 2011/08/26 16:30:04
As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys!
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Jonbouy
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 16:35:10
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Moshkiae Hi, Ohhh well ... it's time to move on to other compounds for instruments ... ohhh well, Pt 2 ... wood was once a nice thing to have ... or use to heat up your house! I think some purists are going to cry now ... that their music is not as good with this wood instead of that wood, or that stick of mud! And in the end, the veritable secret is NOT the wood, but the hands, the mouth, the feel that a person has that can make the ugliest piece of wood, sound like ... music from the aethers. As George said once ... cry baby cry ... Times change and music moves on ... it's almost like saying that the old harpsichords sounded better 500 years ago, because their wood came from ... I doubt it! But I also like to question one's ability to play music ... because the good ones can adjust to anything that is thrown at them ... the rest ... cry! +1 Largely, I think.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 16:35:13
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what a load of burokratik crap.... What is this? Russia? with the KGB raiding companies they disagree with who won't pay the proteckion rackets? I read this on Drudge, and it makes my head explode .... the stupidity and heavy handedness of it all.... I have to wonder... is this still the US of A.... or are we now the USSA ? Hands off my 69 Gibson.... !
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 16:41:54
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Time to move on? What? Gibson was probably doing nothing wrong. You can try to convince me all you want but my Rosewood J-45 wouldn't sound as good if it was plastic. Why do you think there is such a big market for vintage stringed instruments? Are all the original Stratovarius players tone deaf? I'm sorry but I'm just not an apologist for unchecked authority.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 16:48:11
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Wood, and it's structure is what makes the sound whether it's a solid body or a flattop. Plastic and carbon fiber might be OK for kids toys but for a professional quality instrument, I have to say that wood has an appeal that goes beyond it's beauty. Wood has color, design, strength, a certain feel, smell, texture, and its been used and perfected for centuries as the material of preference and choice for instruments of all kinds and flavors. Wooden instruments get better sounding with age... I don't think you can say that about metal, carbon fiber or plastic.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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bayoubill
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 17:03:47
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post edited by bayoubill - 2011/08/26 18:15:34
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drewfx1
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 17:46:04
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What a strange world it is when environmentalists and the US timber industry are united against musicians: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+Senate+passes+Illegal+Logging+Act.-a0175549275 Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), who introduced the Illegal Logging Act, said, "This legislation addresses an illegal logging crisis. Oregon workers and communities are threatened when American companies are forced to compete with illegal foreign imports. Stopping the importation of illegal timber helps protect the environment, supports living wage jobs and levels the playing field for American manufacturers."
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Bub
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 18:08:43
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drewfx1 Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), who introduced the Illegal Logging Act, said, "This legislation addresses an illegal logging crisis. Oregon workers and communities are threatened when American companies are forced to compete with illegal foreign imports. Stopping the importation of illegal timber helps protect the environment, supports living wage jobs and levels the playing field for American manufacturers." What this translates to is, "But most importantly, a bunch of senators pockets got lined by the American Loggers Council."
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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bayoubill
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 18:19:50
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Someone should check the tables and chairs and or furniture of the politicians and legislators behind theses Acts.
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Bub
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 18:29:49
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Anyone ever play one of those new 'Mexican' made Martin guitars? They are made out of High Pressure Laminate. The ones I played sounded awful.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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trimph1
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 18:42:08
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I guess what the thinking is is that wood is an incredibly scarce resource to be fought over tooth and nail now.... Wow.Just.Wow
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Bub
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 18:53:40
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Well ... the real problem is ... the countries where there are no laws or regulations that are decimating the rain forests and such places and not replenishing them. Believe me, I'm no tree hugger ... but even I can see the down side to that. Unfortunately in a free market society, that's the first (cheapest) place companies are going to go for wood and the only way the government can control what the other guy is doing is to make it illegal to buy from them. No demand, no destruction. Or at least that's how it has played out. That, and the American Loggers Council paid off a bunch of people I'm sure. Wood would not be incredibly scarce if people would think, just a little, before they cut it all down, but unfortunately there are a lot of stupid, greedy people in the world. Most of them are in government and big business and control everything.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 19:48:07
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Wood is not only a renewable resource... it is important to renew it for things more important than just wood. FWIW, there are laws in most of the countries where the illegal wood comes from... that's why it's called illegal wood... and yes, I know about the CITES treaty and the fact that not all *illegal* wood was harvested illegally but most of the illegal wood on the market was harvested recently and illegally. One of the premises of the international laws is that we should attempt to make it very unprofitable to try to profit off of illegally harvested wood. The wood that is harvested illegally is done under the protection of thugs using guns and bullets they buy from countries that make guns and bullets. They buy the stuff with the money they get from illegally running wood camps. Madagascar Ebony was described as blood diamonds in that article because most of it that reaches market is, according to Madagascar law, illegal to harvest and yet there are huge operations harvesting it illegally under the protection of a system of influence fueled by corruption and violence. It seems as if Gibson could figure out how to keep all the paperwork in order. As the article states, this is not their first disagreement with law enforcement on this type of issue. I very much love wood and intend to enjoy nice pieces of it myself. I think the key, for me, is to honor wood as the special material it is and to never take it for granted. best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/08/26 19:52:18
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craigb
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 20:03:19
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I still remember an uncle that had these intricate ivory art pieces which were basically a carved ball inside a carved ball inside another carved ball, etc. I used to think just how beautiful the pieces were until I found out where they come from...
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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bapu
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 20:04:11
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Bub Anyone ever play one of those new 'Mexican' made Martin guitars? They are made out of High Pressure Laminate. The ones I played sounded awful. But did you play Mariachi music on them?
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Karyn
Ma-Ma
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 20:21:05
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craigb I still remember an uncle that had these intricate ivory art pieces which were basically a carved ball inside a carved ball inside another carved ball, etc. I used to think just how beautiful the pieces were until I found out where they come from... Japan? China?
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Jonbouy
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 20:24:34
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Japan? China? Nah, Walmart I was thinking.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/08/26 20:25:39
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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drewfx1
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 20:41:00
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mike_mccue Wood is not only a renewable resource... it is important to renew it for things more important than just wood. FWIW, there are laws in most of the countries where the illegal wood comes from... that's why it's called illegal wood... and yes, I know about the CITES treaty and the fact that not all *illegal* wood was harvested illegally but most of the illegal wood on the market was harvested recently and illegally. One of the premises of the international laws is that we should attempt to make it very unprofitable to try to profit off of illegally harvested wood. The wood that is harvested illegally is done under the protection of thugs using guns and bullets they buy from countries that make guns and bullets. They buy the stuff with the money they get from illegally running wood camps. Madagascar Ebony was described as blood diamonds in that article because most of it that reaches market is, according to Madagascar law, illegal to harvest and yet there are huge operations harvesting it illegally under the protection of a system of influence fueled by corruption and violence. It seems as if Gibson could figure out how to keep all the paperwork in order. As the article states, this is not their first disagreement with law enforcement on this type of issue. I very much love wood and intend to enjoy nice pieces of it myself. I think the key, for me, is to honor wood as the special material it is and to never take it for granted. best regards, mike Mike, the problem is the law is not designed to make it impossible to use illegally harvested wood. It's designed to make using non-American wood of any kind put you in potential legal jeopardy. It puts the burden on the person possessing a piece of wood to document the complete chain of custody to determine exactly where that wood came from. IOW, you're guilty unless you can prove you're innocent. You do have proper documentation on every piece of wood in your house don't you?
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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jbow
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 20:49:26
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I think the EPA has truy outlived their usefulness. Let business sectors police themselves and if someone gets out of line then step up... but this is just crazy. No wonder we are in such a mess. Gak... Things like this just amaze me. Have you ever had whale meat with gravy, it is really good. This reminds me of all the morons who try to 'save' beached whales, or spend a bunch of money trying to get a whale out of a river and back to sea.... why not have a huge BBQ?? Sometimes I think we have just completely lost our collective mind. Julien
post edited by jbow - 2011/08/26 20:52:56
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craigb
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 21:08:45
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Jonbouy Japan? China?
Nah, Walmart I was thinking. Worse! A kid with a lemonade stand.
post edited by craigb - 2011/08/26 21:09:46
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 21:12:37
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Hi Drew, Of course not... but none of my wood will be crossing an international border any time soon. When I buy a wood item from a premium USA manufacturer I hope to be able to trust that the imported wood that came with accurate documentation. I think perhaps you are speaking about the domestic law Bub cited where as I am referring to the CITES treaty which has effected both raw lumber and manufactured objects like antique furniture, firearms, objects d'art and musical instruments for decades. http://www.cites.org/ The ideas behind CITES date from the early 1960's. The CITES treaty has been "in force" since 1975. It is a voluntary aspect of international law and to be a participant party you have to have domestic laws that support the treaty. After you have the laws in place you have to actually enforce the laws to be held in good standing with regards to the treaty. While it may be true that tree farmers and processors influenced the passing of relative domestic laws you can imagine that the furniture factories and the firearm makers and the musical instrument manufacturers lost a source of needed materials... and they have lobbies as well... so basically trying to figure who won and lost in the repercussions of any domestic law making is a study in human society. Nothing new here. The CITES treaty has been around so long that Gibson must be thoroughly familiar with how it works and how the USA attempts to be a participant by enacting and enforcing laws related to it. I admire the CEO of Gibson... he and his partners bought the company and turned it around. They are graduates from Harvard. Maybe they did buy some improperly documented wood? Or, maybe someone at the Game commission up there is a bad egg employee with a bad attidtude and somehow snookered the F.B.I into getting warrants and all that stuff. The smart people at Gibson are going to figure out how to cooperate with the paperwork or they'll lobby to have to cooperate less... or something. all the best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/08/27 07:25:06
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Bub
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 21:13:22
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mike_mccue Wood is not only a renewable resource... it is important to renew it for things more important than just wood. FWIW, there are laws in most of the countries where the illegal wood comes from... that's why it's called illegal wood... and yes, I know about the CITES treaty and the fact that not all *illegal* wood was harvested illegally but most of the illegal wood on the market was harvested recently and illegally. One of the premises of the international laws is that we should attempt to make it very unprofitable to try to profit off of illegally harvested wood. The wood that is harvested illegally is done under the protection of thugs using guns and bullets they buy from countries that make guns and bullets. They buy the stuff with the money they get from illegally running wood camps. Madagascar Ebony was described as blood diamonds in that article because most of it that reaches market is, according to Madagascar law, illegal to harvest and yet there are huge operations harvesting it illegally under the protection of a system of influence fueled by corruption and violence. It seems as if Gibson could figure out how to keep all the paperwork in order. As the article states, this is not their first disagreement with law enforcement on this type of issue. I very much love wood and intend to enjoy nice pieces of it myself. I think the key, for me, is to honor wood as the special material it is and to never take it for granted. best regards, mike +1
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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bapu
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 21:16:09
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I glad Straummy's Ruby made it to him safely. Now, how will I get The (spacey) Bapu Bass to the UK next year? I guess Michael will have to provide me with proper documentation.
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spacey
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 21:48:25
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Hide your new Taylor Phil!! Man I'm glad I don't keep the guitars I make!! LOL Huh...guys....you know that little place I put me mark....would ya mind....?
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ampfixer
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 21:55:21
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It really is a serious issue. I know a man that makes great bass guitars and ships them all over the world. There are big costs attached to compliance with these codes and a new way of thinking is required. Mother of pearl is restricted and if you use fake MOP you don't want to call it pearloid. Just having the word pearl on the paperwork will bring extra scrutiny. I offer hardwood front and back panels on my amps. When I started, it was going to be American hardwoods only. In short time I learned that people want exotic hardwoods like Koa and Paduk. I can't offer this option to anyone outside of Canada because the border agents would seize it. I make so little profit that large amounts of extra documentation and approvals would kill me. Funny that this is going on while people are asking you to send them your old scrap jewelry in return for cash- no questions asked. What do you think has more crime hidden behind it, gold and diamonds or wood. I think somebody is trying real hard to smack down Gibson, but I don't know why.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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trimph1
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 22:01:47
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There has been some real serious talk about it on some sites lately. Now, what to do ..what other materials can guitars be made of? Uh, Lego, mmmmm, ummmm, composite plastics, mmmm, fibreglass, ummmm, acrylics, ummmmmm...soviet style here we come....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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craigb
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 22:29:35
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I prefer cardboard, but I play along side cardboard cutouts so YMMV...
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 22:38:20
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Regulations and complying with them and now proving that you're complying with them is killing American business. This will not stop the cutting of trees in Madascar or anywhere else. If they can't sell the woods here in the US due to the regulations, there are many other countries willing to buy them so it accomplishes nothing. I think it would be better to allow the woods to be harvested and encourage a replanting program for sustainability. Yeah, I know some trees grow slow, but start planting today and our great great grand kids will still be able to buy a guitar made from wood.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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craigb
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Re:Feds raid Gibson Factory
2011/08/26 22:47:32
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I think the Feds just want to get some free gear...
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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