Feel Limited by FX Bin Size and Number of Sends You Can View?

Two things inspired me to start this topic. First, a post from Mod Bod in another thread (I didn't want to hijack the thread, and it's edited for brevity):
 

Mod Bod
I want to use SONAR on a regular basis again but there is this gap between us that stops me dead in my tracks...Case in point, today as I tried to set up a template project, I quickly noticed and remembered that the maximum number of 3rd party plugins I could see in the Console view FX bin was three and then I had to scroll to see further than that.  I thought maybe there will be some way to expand the FX bin size.  Sorry Charlie, can't do that.
 
Another similar issue is the Sends module where the maximum number of sends you can see is two.  This is no bueno with complex mixes that might also include Cue Mixes.

I've been in Cakewalk forums for (I'm guessing) over 20 years so I know the choruses of "Just use something else, if you don't like what we like" will be forthcoming and I have done just that.   But it wasn't because I wanted to.

The other reason for starting this thread is I've done a few projects lately with a gazillion tracks, buses, and effects. One in particular is a Construction Kit with one track for what will be each file in the kit. While the file size isn't huge (under 1GB for now), the interface demands are major as there are dozens of folders, each containing multiple loops and variations, and incorporating MIDI and audio. In addition to the "finished" versions of files, all the source files must be managed as well. Having generally worked on much smaller projects, the workflow I had used in the past was not appropriate.
 
I know that workflow is very personal and also project-dependent. What works fantastically for one person could be useless for another, so please, no need for the "that wouldn't work for me comments" because I'm describing what works for ME for a particularly complex type of project, and those who have similar needs might be able to benefit.
 
There are four key elements.
 
Track View vs. Console
 
I use the Track View for tracking and arranging. TV allows seeing as many sends and effects as you want by extending the track height or width. Once the sends and effects are set up, I seldom need to access them when mixing so I spend much more time in the Console view. At that point I don't need access to I/O or gain, so at least there's space for the four sends and assignable controls for the FX so my most needed sends can be visible.
 
Auto-Zoom
 
This is key for TV, because if you really do have something like a dozen sends and effects, you need at least some track height. Auto-zoom really helps in this respect, because you can click a track and see everything at once for that track while the others remain shortened yet visible.
 
Screensets
 
If you don't have a huge number of effects but your main concern is sends, you can set up a wide track header so you can see rows of multiple sends, and not have too high a track height so you can see sends for multiple tracks simultaneously. Track folders help here too, because I usually need to see associated sends - e.g., all sends for vocals, all sends for drums, all sends for guitar, etc. I can usually see all the sends for all the tracks in a folder by extending the track header width. 
 
The D Keyboard Shortcut 
 
This is what lets me bounce back and forth easily between the TV and Console as the piece transitions from creation/arranging to mixing. If I'm in Console View and need a quick overview, D (or sometimes a screenset change) does the job.
 
Once I figured this out, I was surprised at how easy it was for me to manage huge projects. I really could not have done the equivalent with any of the other programs I own. Granted, it REALLY helps to have two monitors, but still, I've used a similar approach with a laptop and while not optimum, it's still workable.
 
I hope someone finds this useful.
 
P.S. About touch...I've had a chance to use the touch version of Sonar. It's a whole different animal, because you can set the touch screen on your desk at an angle, just like a real mixer. Compared to using conventional monitors, mice, etc. the best thing about touch is you can use both hands - one hand to scroll and find, the other to handle the mouse for precise operations. I was skeptical at first, but quickly realized how much touch restores the "feel" of working on an analog console - as much because of the workflow as the fact that you're touching things. Not too long from now, I think people will marvel that we managed to get any music done at all using an interface designed for entering numbers in a spreadsheet.
 
 
 

I will post a comment if you wish. I rarely use the console view. Using it more now because of the ProChannel. Now that I think about it, it would be handy to have the pre/post fx bin button, clipping indicator and power button in the track header and if there needs to be a fourth, put the interleave back. Then the console view would be as redundant as it was pre-X series for my purposes.

Ive been on this number of sends since they took it away in the Sonar X series!!!! I was happy in the earlier versions with the 4 sends being able to be seen and now they regressed to 2 sends being able to be seen!!
 
As Nancy Kerrigan said "WHY!" "WHY" "WHY!!!!"
 
Dont even get me started on the scrolling up and down with the mouse in the track view. Do not get me STARTED!!!!!!
CJ

Sonar should have a project plan view (preferrably interactive). Call it Meta View.
This would show the entire structure (components and plumbing) of the project at a glance.
I envision clickable icons which expand to show details for things like I/O,FX bins and so on.
Lines connecting the icons would show the routing of tracks, sends buses,etc). 
Treat MIDI the same way.
If you create a pencil and paper plan of your project, you would most likely end up with a schematic very similar to what I have in mind.
All the necessary info is already present within Sonar to do this.
Most of the graphical components already exist in C++ and the methods to implement the dragging/docking as well.
 
It would be nice to be able to manipulate the Meta View also ( the interactive part).
Right click a track icon (named Vocals) in the Meta View... choose add send.. drag the resulting line to a bus icon.
You could set a filter to only show sends for one (any or all) tracks. It would show the send  connections.
Click the FX icon for a track, it expands to show the FX. Click on one FX and the FX control window pops up.
No sound from the project? The problem would be obvious since there is no path connecting the track to an output.
 
Craig would be able to view his complex project(s) in toto on one screen.
 
The possibilities are endless.
You get the idea.
 

A routing matrix like Reaper's would be helpful.

Well said Dave!
Great minds think alike?
So far, iPhones (have I told you I HATED my iPhone? They bounce well though!),
and the iPad just don't "work" for me.
The whole "touch" thing: results are ALWAYS unpredictable.
Love my CS (FW-1884)!
 
Tom

Mod Bod
I completely understand that if the user base doesn't use the Console

I use Console View 90% of the time.

I posted many many years ago the notion of an project overview that would allow all the routing and sends and such to be seen all on one screen. Something that was zoomable and graphic. If anyone remembers the Logic environment that was what I had in mind. This would apply to MIDI routing as well. 
I still think it would be a great enhancement to Sonar. 
 
A vector based CV instead of the bitmapped one we have today would be resistible and better looking. 
 
As to the idea of more sends being shown on the CV I vote yes to that. 
 
 

Anderton
Bumping because I'm kind of curious why there are 94 views and no comments. I guess everyone either thought "Duh, that's obvious," "I don't care," or "Wow, that's really a dumb post" 

 
 
Craig "thank you" for always looking out for ways to improve our workflow with the current program structure and open some dialog with users about our favorite daw. Your advice/tips more often than not applies to me and has brought improved workflow changes! 
 
Like most long time users here, I also use the points you have listed above all the time minus the screensets. I want to, and I tried for a while, but with X3 more so than X2 or X1; switching/loading screensets is slow. Apologies to FBB.
  
I'm with anyone who thinks the sends user interface needs improvement. Some things I smh about:
 
1) Not being able to add or delete multiple sends in one action

• dislike dragging a mouse carefully to select a single send in the Win 3.11 ish pop out window. I would rather have a modern pop out window with scroll bars and check boxes to select or deselect multiple sends.

• The sends are shown in last created order and lumped into one long list with buses and plugin side chains all sharing the same space. Messy is not meant as an insult here, but it is messy.

 2) Not being able to right click on a send to open the connected bus for editing. Biggie for me.
 
3) Yes - instantly see / touch the sends in the console view. It's head scratching that isn't part of the foundation of the console view.
  
Maybe the sends could reside in the much wider prochannel - aka Sends Module?? That would probably be a programming nightmare. 
 
 
 
 

The flyout code seems to have already been written for the Quad Curve. I'm not a programmer but I'm assuming it wouldn't be too hard to apply it to other areas of the program (and there are quite a few things that could benefit from a flyout IMO). However what would this flyout contain? Only information for the sends on that specific track or a complete Sends overview or options for both?
 
A lot of the issues people seem to have is just not being able to see those extra sends all at once right in the CV. I like ModBod's idea which is the most elegant solution. I personally find the lack of control over how the CV is displayed to be a bit of a problem and I typed up a diatribe in long gone thread about it.
 
We can currently hide/show various components of the CV strips. Being able to have an option that exposes the entirety of the sends or FX bin or whatever is obviously useful for this, especially for those of us with a single screen who make heavy use of the dock which is limited in height. I would actually like to be able to show/hide modules on a strip by strip basis so that way if I have a bunch of sends on one strip but no FX (or don't need to see the FX bin) then no Sends but lots of FX on another (that I'd like access to) then I could set up each strip to show what I need to get at on the fly instead of scrolling or screwing around with screenset (which can be a little finicky) or mess with changing the show/hide status of the entire CV...
 
Now THAT would be a pain to code but would definitely be worth it. I spend far too much time navigating around the CV to get at stuff when I should be listening and tweaking. It would be nice too if there were some kind of Dock option (like a keybinding... say Shift D if that isn't taken) that would keep everything in the dock actually docked but go full screen then disappear with a simple D keystroke as usual. That would allow more of not only the CV to be viewable from the dock but some of the larger VSTs, the PRV, plugins that have controls inaccessible with the dock stretched out to full capacity, etc.
 
I don't have a huge screen but it's big enough yet still many times I am itching for more access to docked items. I couldn't imagine screwing around like that on my smaller laptop screen.
 
Okay... I'll stop now. lol

Beepster
 
A lot of the issues people seem to have is just not being able to see those extra sends all at once right in the CV. I like ModBod's idea which is the most elegant solution. 

Not my idea - I cut and pasted it from SONAR Pre-X with a few tweaks I lifted from other products.

Mod Bod

Beepster
 
A lot of the issues people seem to have is just not being able to see those extra sends all at once right in the CV. I like ModBod's idea which is the most elegant solution. 

Not my idea - I cut and pasted it from SONAR Pre-X with a few tweaks I lifted from other products.

Ah... I initially thought it was a screengrab from a previous version (I've only been a user since X1) but then saw you say you had manipulated the image so I thought it was pure ModBod.
 
I hear a lot of talk about certain things from the pre X days that are appealing to me and this would qualify. However there are a lot of things in the X series I like much more (which is why I chose Sonar when building my new system).
 
I know it would probably be bad from a business standpoint but it'd be cool if Cake offered legacy releases so some of us n00bs could play around with previous versions if we wanted.
 
Cheers.

Beepster

Mod Bod

Beepster
 
A lot of the issues people seem to have is just not being able to see those extra sends all at once right in the CV. I like ModBod's idea which is the most elegant solution. 

Not my idea - I cut and pasted it from SONAR Pre-X with a few tweaks I lifted from other products.

Ah... I initially thought it was a screengrab from a previous version (I've only been a user since X1) but then saw you say you had manipulated the image so I thought it was pure ModBod.
 
I hear a lot of talk about certain things from the pre X days that are appealing to me and this would qualify. However there are a lot of things in the X series I like much more (which is why I chose Sonar when building my new system).
 
I know it would probably be bad from a business standpoint but it'd be cool if Cake offered legacy releases so some of us n00bs could play around with previous versions if we wanted.
 
Cheers.

I like the X series as well but why abandon the best bits of past releases if it makes your working environment more powerful?

I agree but I get the distinct feeling the Bakers may have had their hands tied in many ways by the previous parent company. There may have been outside factors hamfistedly guiding some of the decisions being made. Add to that the struggles and logistics of a complete overhaul such as the X series and you have a perfect storm of useful things slipping through the cracks.
 
I feel far more confident with the release of X3 and having Gibson holding the purse strings. You can already see how much happier the Bakers seem to be, the steady improvements being made even in just the patches and the steady flow of resource material coming forth. I'm sure these nagging issues will get dealt with now that they aren't having to struggle with bugs and what seemed to be quite a bit of internal weirdness.
 
Let's just hope Gibson/Tascam sees this as an investment worth dumping enough cash into to make it everything it could be. I think Sonar really could knock out a lot of other players now that the infamous bugginess is mostly gone. Should be plenty of time to focus on features and workflow now.

No such thing as Roland/Cakewalk anymore... which I think is probably a good thing. Hoping the Tascam/Gibson/Cakewalk combo is going to make all our dreams come true. ;-)