blueyonder
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Few questions from Nuendo user
Hi, I have started recently looking at sonar 4 after a few had mentioned it on the Nuendo forum.I can see that a company that only codes for windows is in fact a good thing in my book. I would like to ask a few questions about sonar so I can relate it to my work flow in Nuendo/SX.I cannot seem to find a 'pencil tool' for drawing waveforms,if I get a digi click or samle dropout in a recording in Nuendo I'll either open up the sample editor or zoom in the arrange window choose the pencil tool and redraw the waveform to rectify the problem,how is this done in sonar? PDC! I use fx teleport and have 2 fx machines running into my main DAW, when playing a VSTI I have the network latency down low for obnvious reasons but once the part has been played I up the latency to get droput free performance.In Nuendo I just turn the PDC on and off and it recalculates and everything is back in sync,in sonar how do you do this? it only seems to work at the system latency and if I change the teleport latency sonar doesn't recalculate. BFD! seems to not show its full number of outputs in sonar when BFD All is selected,is this a know 'bug' There is no Audio pool in sonar,in Nuendo i can open the pool if i want to re import say a deleted track or take back into the project,I get the option to import at the cursor(now) or at the origional recorded place which is a big help at times. these are the issues that have come up after my first day of trying sonar. I apreciate your thoughts/opinions on these matters cheers 
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 13:44:55
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I would like to ask a few questions about sonar so I can relate it to my work flow in Nuendo/SX.I cannot seem to find a 'pencil tool' for drawing waveforms,if I get a digi click or samle dropout in a recording in Nuendo I'll either open up the sample editor or zoom in the arrange window choose the pencil tool and redraw the waveform to rectify the problem,how is this done in sonar? SONAR has no pencil tool but it is no problem for me. In the Tools drop down menu the program Sound Forge 8.0 can be accessed. It automatically opens SF for me and loads the waveform. I use SF's pencil tool and save the file. Close SF and SONAR asks me if I want to save the change made in the file.
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daverich
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 13:45:35
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
Hi,
I have started recently looking at sonar 4 after a few had mentioned it on the Nuendo forum.I can see that a company that only codes for windows is in fact a good thing in my book.
I would like to ask a few questions about sonar so I can relate it to my work flow in Nuendo/SX.I cannot seem to find a 'pencil tool' for drawing waveforms,if I get a digi click or samle dropout in a recording in Nuendo I'll either open up the sample editor or zoom in the arrange window choose the pencil tool and redraw the waveform to rectify the problem,how is this done in sonar?
You can't. You would use a clip gain envelope - non destructive ;)
PDC! I use fx teleport and have 2 fx machines running into my main DAW, when playing a VSTI I have the network latency down low for obnvious reasons but once the part has been played I up the latency to get droput free performance.In Nuendo I just turn the PDC on and off and it recalculates and everything is back in sync,in sonar how do you do this? it only seems to work at the system latency and if I change the teleport latency sonar doesn't recalculate.
BFD! seems to not show its full number of outputs in sonar when BFD All is selected,is this a know 'bug'
There is no Audio pool in sonar,in Nuendo i can open the pool if i want to re import say a deleted track or take back into the project,I get the option to import at the cursor(now) or at the origional recorded place which is a big help at times.
these are the issues that have come up after my first day of trying sonar.
I apreciate your thoughts/opinions on these matters
cheers
Yeah you're right - an audio pool would be cool. PDC in sonar is excellent and has been since I can remember. Also you can rearrange plugins to your hearts content (something you can't do in sx/nuendo). Also the sonitus plugs pi$$ over anything you get included with nuendo :D Kind regards Dave Rich
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losguy
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 13:49:48
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
I would like to ask a few questions about sonar so I can relate it to my work flow in Nuendo/SX.I cannot seem to find a 'pencil tool' for drawing waveforms,if I get a digi click or samle dropout in a recording in Nuendo I'll either open up the sample editor or zoom in the arrange window choose the pencil tool and redraw the waveform to rectify the problem,how is this done in sonar? It's best done by getting a dedicated wave editor like SoundForge or Adobe Audition and integrating it into the SONAR Tools menu, then using those editing tools. Yes, it's another tool, but for me it's the best of both worlds. SONAR has strength in tracking and arranging, and the wave editor opens a whole world of powerful offline processing of waveforms. There is no Audio pool in sonar,in Nuendo i can open the pool if i want to re import say a deleted track or take back into the project,I get the option to import at the cursor(now) or at the origional recorded place which is a big help at times. A deleted audio clip will still have its associated wave file in the Audio folder associated with the project, until you clean it out later manually. So until it's deleted, you can always import it back. You can drag & drop it from Windows explorer right back into the project, and slip it to wherever you want.
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 13:49:57
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There is no Audio pool in sonar,in Nuendo i can open the pool if i want to re import say a deleted track or take back into the project,I get the option to import at the cursor(now) or at the origional recorded place which is a big help at times. I didn't get what you were saying at first so I didn't reply to this part. SONAR does not really delete your files they are still in your per project folder assuming you have enabled that feature. Using the loop explorer you can find the file via auditioning files or if you were smarter than me named it something you would recognise. From the loop explorer you can drag and drop it where you want.
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losguy
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 13:52:37
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Great minds think alike, eh Mod? Or is that great hairdo's...
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wogg
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 13:52:48
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There is no Audio pool in sonar,in Nuendo i can open the pool if i want to re import say a deleted track or take back into the project,I get the option to import at the cursor(now) or at the origional recorded place which is a big help at times. Sonar doesn't delete the removed takes from the audio folder (until the application is closed that is) so there's a kinda audio pool sitting in a Windows folder waiting for re-import. But it sounds like that's a poor substitute for Nuendo's implementation. I think Sonar's PDC works well with the VST wrapper so that shouldn't be a problem with FxTeleport. Other than that it seems you've identified some interesting differences. Keep in mind that Sonar is considerably cheaper than Nuendo.
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 14:06:44
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Great minds think alike, eh Mod? Or is that great hairdo's... Well, you said pull them from Windows Explorer and I said Loop Explorer.
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pwal
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 14:10:53
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BFD! seems to not show its full number of outputs in sonar when BFD All is selected,is this a know 'bug' When inserting a DXi/VSTi you can select 'All outputs' or "First output" when first inserting - sounds like you selected "First output", the default? I don't have BFD but haven't seen this with any other softsynths (in SPE311) - does it use a NI frontend/player? hth p
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losguy
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 14:14:32
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ORIGINAL: Mod Bod
Great minds think alike, eh Mod? Or is that great hairdo's...
Well, you said pull them from Windows Explorer and I said Loop Explorer. Aw, Mod, now you're splitting hairs. 
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/09 15:06:53
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Aw, Mod, now you're splitting hairs. Aww, I've got plenty of 'em. BTW, I'm changing my name to Phil Spectacle. 
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 04:57:08
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Thanks for your replys chaps .Ok I see that you have to use another program as a dedicated audio editor, I'll give it a try but i can imagne opening another program takes longer than opening an editor in the same program.On the point of PDC I dont think you've grasped the teleport problem,basicaly once you've opened a teleported plug/inst,the PDC will only work at whatever the system latency is which puts too much stress on the network.As I said in Nunedo/SX I track with the small latency then slide the latency up to relieve network stress and press the turn PDC on/off button and PDC recalculates with the newer large latency so everything is in time still,in sonar once I've changed my teleport latency it doesnt recalculate so the teleported VSTI is out of time,I've tried turning the audio engine on/off but that doesnt work. The reason SX/Nuendo has a button to turn PDC on off is that obviously the latency of the project will be as large as the latency of the most latent pluggin regardless of what the actual sound card buffer is set to,so if you are playing a VSTI then the latency will be unusable if you've got something like SIR in a project,so,If you just turn it off while tracking you are then back to the souncard latency,record your part and click,PDC back again. On the BFD issue I did indeed set it to use all outputs which in BFD 's case is 3 stereo outs for Overheads,Room mics and PZM and 11 separate mono tracks for all the close mic'd drums but for some reason it didnt open them all,I was thinking maybe sonar had a limit on the number of outputs on VSTI's,I know logic used to have this problem. I know sonar is cheaper than the Steinberg apps but to be honest cost isnt really an issue,I am a pro so if it works as it should then I'll use it. You are probably wondering why I'm checking out Sonar when I've got Nuendo3 and SX3 well,With the current situation with new windows hardware i.e. 64 bit,dual cores etc there is some SERIOUS horse power available if the software can use it.SX/Nuendo 3 at the moment cannot use hyperthreading in a dual system which now transpires seems to mean that it cant use dual cores in a dual system this is a big loss.If Sonar (and i beleive it can )can utillise all 4 threads of a dual dual core system then thats going to be one hell of a system and maybe,just maybe it might be worth using software that can use it. As sonar only has to worry abut windows and not spend its time worrying about OSX.x and now recoding for non power PC chips of the future!!! I can see this as a great plus for the software.Bear in mind windows people that Nuendo along side gigastudio has probably been the biggest help in getting the PC accepted into the world of pro audio,now its there I think Sonar could sneak in the back door if it plays its cards right and keeps ahead of the game with the windows platform. cheers Blue
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soundfreely
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 05:06:35
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Are you using the latest install of BFD? The later installs of BFD show all outputs in Sonar (DXi version). I think I am using the version of BFD that ends with 1.xx.21.
-Erik
PS I work as a "pro" too. I don't get to use Sonar at work but I do ocassionally bring projects home.
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 05:10:34
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Sorry as P.S regarding the pool,I know the files are stored in the audio folder which can be accesed through explorer but imagine a scenario whereby I've tracked a vocal for example and I've dropped in a few times throughout the take, after some thought I delete it from the track but 10 minutes lated the singer says 'can I just hear that track again?' if I open the pool in nuendo it will be in the trash so I drag the files out of the trash,right click and I get a menu asking if I want to reimport into the project at the cursor or more importantly at the ORIGIN.This means all the little files which are drop ins etc will all just go back to there origional place.I couldnt do that from the audio files folder in Sonar I'd have to manualy try and piece it together the best I could  . P.P.S Please dont think I'm knocking the program,I know on the Nuendo forum there are a few people who've come over from the pro tools world who ask similar things and so long as you can achieve the same thing then its just a case of finding out how, if things cannot be done though then thats a different matter.
post edited by blueyonder - 2005/06/10 05:18:02
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soundfreely
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 05:18:31
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You may have to change some of your work routines as Sonar is a different program (no kidding ). Have you tried the mute tool as opposed to deleting the take? Also, you can right click in the track window and select "show layers." With track layers and the mute tool, you may find that you don't need to delete takes. OTH, I know that Sonar will export Broadcast Waves, but I think it is RIFF waves that are written to the audio folder. The broadcast waves can be imported at their appropriate time stamp. I suppose moving to new software can be a bit frustrating at times. I know when I am at work there are times I wish I had Sonar with me. Each program has its strengths and weaknesses. -Erik
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 05:57:01
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Hi Erik,
Yes i agree new software takes time to get to know,The mute tool would be fine but here's another example where the import at origin saved my ass recently.I was tracking some trumpet and after a few takes i had a crash due to me doing something silly,I hadnt saved at the time so I just reopenend the project, found the trumpet files in the pool and just imported them back to their origin.
Maybe Sonar isnt quite ready for me yet. I know there is V5 around the corner or so I've gathered(could be wrong) So I'm just dipping my toe at the moment in case as i said before ,Sonar sneaks in the back door and surprises everyone.
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soundfreely
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 06:03:56
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
Hi Erik,
The mute tool would be fine but here's another example where the import at origin saved my ass recently.I was tracking some trumpet and after a few takes i had a crash due to me doing something silly,I hadnt saved at the time so I just reopenend the project, found the trumpet files in the pool and just imported them back to their origin.
Good point! I've never had the crashing problem so I haven't needed to import any lost tracks back into the project. Anyway, I hope you enjoy wetting your toes in Sonar. All the best, Erik
post edited by soundfreely - 2005/06/10 06:07:12
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 10:20:45
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Couple more things while I'm at it 1: is there anyway to select a number of tracks and then asign them to a particular group/buss/output etc with one key click,in Nuendo I select a number of tracks and then if I hold down shift when I go to change the routing all the selelcted tracks change,it saves having to click on a number of drum tracks for example one at a time to send to the drum sub group. 2: when you have a large mix going,if I touch a fader on my controler the track is selected in Nuendo and if its scrolled off screen then it will jump on screen.Also if I select a track in the arange window the corresponding track is highlighted in the mixer and vice versa,I can also use the option to colour the bottom of the mixer channels the same as the track colours in the arrange window which is good for navigating large projects,can this be done? These are all little things I've found frustrating on my first delve into Sonar land,they probably sound small but they do add up making workflow slower,less clicks is a good thing One last thing can someone form Sonar verify that Sonar will split ALL its load/functions across 4 cpu's in a dual,dual core athlon machine i.e the Audio engine and DXi's spread across not just the GUI
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daverich
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 11:02:21
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
Couple more things while I'm at it
1: is there anyway to select a number of tracks and then asign them to a particular group/buss/output etc with one key click,in Nuendo I select a number of tracks and then if I hold down shift when I go to change the routing all the selelcted tracks change,it saves having to click on a number of drum tracks for example one at a time to send to the drum sub group.
2: when you have a large mix going,if I touch a fader on my controler the track is selected in Nuendo and if its scrolled off screen then it will jump on screen.Also if I select a track in the arange window the corresponding track is highlighted in the mixer and vice versa,I can also use the option to colour the bottom of the mixer channels the same as the track colours in the arrange window which is good for navigating large projects,can this be done?
These are all little things I've found frustrating on my first delve into Sonar land,they probably sound small but they do add up making workflow slower,less clicks is a good thing
One last thing can someone form Sonar verify that Sonar will split ALL its load/functions across 4 cpu's in a dual,dual core athlon machine i.e the Audio engine and DXi's spread across not just the GUI
Cakewalk make a big deal of how well sonar runs on a multi-threaded platform. You should find sonar spreads it around nicely. Kind regards Dave Rich.
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kp
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 12:34:11
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
Couple more things while I'm at it
1: is there anyway to select a number of tracks and then asign them to a particular group/buss/output etc with one key click,in Nuendo I select a number of tracks and then if I hold down shift when I go to change the routing all the selelcted tracks change,it saves having to click on a number of drum tracks for example one at a time to send to the drum sub group.
Select all the tracks, then choose Track>Output from the top menu. That'll change them all in one go.
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daverich
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 13:57:52
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ORIGINAL: kp
ORIGINAL: blueyonder
Couple more things while I'm at it
1: is there anyway to select a number of tracks and then asign them to a particular group/buss/output etc with one key click,in Nuendo I select a number of tracks and then if I hold down shift when I go to change the routing all the selelcted tracks change,it saves having to click on a number of drum tracks for example one at a time to send to the drum sub group.
Select all the tracks, then choose Track>Output from the top menu. That'll change them all in one go.
I never knew that. cool. Kind regards Dave Rich.
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soundfreely
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 15:47:43
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
2: when you have a large mix going,if I touch a fader on my controler the track is selected in Nuendo and if its scrolled off screen then it will jump on screen.Also if I select a track in the arange window the corresponding track is highlighted in the mixer and vice versa,I can also use the option to colour the bottom of the mixer channels the same as the track colours in the arrange window which is good for navigating large projects,can this be done?
Whether or not the fader touch will select the track depends upon the control surface that you're using. The Mackie Control will do this by selecting the appropriate option in the Mackie Control settings window. Have a look at the contol surface settings window to see if your controller will support that function. There's also a project map than can be opened in Sonar that makes navigating through large projects a snap. It will provide you with a map of the whole project above your track window. I'm not sure what the actual Sonar term for it is but it is very useful with large projects. -Erik
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keith
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 16:24:46
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
As I said in Nunedo/SX I track with the small latency then slide the latency up to relieve network stress and press the turn PDC on/off button and PDC recalculates with the newer large latency so everything is in time still,in sonar once I've changed my teleport latency it doesnt recalculate so the teleported VSTI is out of time,I've tried turning the audio engine on/off but that doesnt work.
I see what you're saying about the lack of PDC recalculation -- I've never experienced this myself since I don't use FXteleport, nor do I change latenecy settings for that matter. From what you're saying it sounds like SONAR calculates PDC latency once, perhaps when the plug is inserted. When you change latency on FXteleport, SONAR is none the wiser and uses the old PDC latency. Two things: 1.) How do you force SONAR to recalculate PDC? You tried stopping and starting the audio engine, and that doesn't do anything. Here's a couple of more suggestions: a.) disable the plugin in the effects bin by clicking on the little green square -- see if that synchs it up; of course this is not a viable solution if you have 10's of FXteleport plugs... b.) go into the audio setting dialog and change the SONAR mix buffer size -- two problems here: i.) doesn't work with ASIO (WDM only), I believe, since the buffer size is tied to the ASIO buffer size; ii.) changing the buffer may require SONAR restart (I don't know since I never change the buffer) 2.) Ron Kuper mentioned a AUD.INI setting a while back with regard to gapping and PDC -- has something to do with whether or not to recalculate PDC under certain circumstances. This INI setting may be of use assuming it provides a solution to #1 above; I'll try to dig up the thread. In any event, with regard to #1 -- perhaps the VST spec supports the model where a plugin tells the host that it's latency value has changed, but FX-MAX doesn't implement it (or it's broken). In other words, when SONAR starts up it asks each PDC-enabled plug "what's your latency?" -- shouldn't that communication go the other way as well for exactly this situation? Don't know enough about the VST spec, but if Steinberg's own products contain a "recalculate PDC" button, then I'd say the VST spec is deficient. If the spec does support it then perhaps either FXteleport or SONAR doesn't implement it correctly. Finally, if the VST spec doesn't support plug-to-host latency reporting, then perhaps cake should consider providing a similar PDC on/off function (without having to restart the app).
The reason SX/Nuendo has a button to turn PDC on off is that obviously the latency of the project will be as large as the latency of the most latent pluggin regardless of what the actual sound card buffer is set to,so if you are playing a VSTI then the latency will be unusable if you've got something like SIR in a project,so,If you just turn it off while tracking you are then back to the souncard latency,record your part and click,PDC back again.
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keith
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 16:36:22
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Ok, found the thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=279027&mpage=1&key=PDC%2CINI Here's what Ron says:
Billy, in 4.01 you can turn off live updating of PDC by the following INI variable:
[Wave]
EnableLiveADCRecalc=<0 or 1> (default = 1)
When set to zero, SONAR will bypass nearly all of the expensive work that needs to get done to recompute PDC after an audio signal routing change. Your audio will be slightly out of sync -- imperceptibly if you are running at very low latency -- but there won't be a gap.
Regardless of how this variable is set, PDC gets recomputed when you stop and restart playback.
Also, in 4.01 we added a volume ramp so that when audio comes back in after a gap it doesn't come in too abruptly. The slope of this ramp (in microseconds per dB) is given by:
[Wave]
GapDezipperUsec=<n> (default = 500)
If you turn n down to a smaller value you'll hear audio fade back in more quickly.
I highlighted a couple fo things that might be useful. First, his description says that PDC is recomputed after an "audio signal routing change". In other words, plug a PDC enabled plug into any old FX bin, then delete it -- PDC should have been recomputed. My earlier statement that you'd have to change the state of all PDC plugs is incorrect -- only one would have to change to force a recompute of the entire PDC dependency set, which makes sense. The other interesting tidbit is: "PDC gets recomputed when you stop and restart playback". This is interesting becuase, presumably, at some point after changing the FXteleport latency you would have stopped and started playback. But you're saying after changing FXteleport latency, the FXteleport plugs never synch up? That would seem to contradict what Ron is saying about always recomputing at stop/start. - Keith
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 16:56:59
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Keith, Thanks for replying,you have understood exactly what I was saying.You are right in the fact sonar seems to only calculate the pluggin delay on startup and then doesnt seem to adjust it.I thought I'd hit on something when I went back and ran the vst rapper again and checked the preferences of the wrapped pluggs,I noticed there was a check box to enable PDC that wasnt checked in some cases and BFD was one of them.Upon checking the box and opening a teleported BDF i noticed that the latency was 2x the system latency now compared to the exact system latency before,however on changing the teleport latency PDC wasnt recaculated.If I could sort this out I would be keen to start a project in Sonar to see how it went as i did find a realy cool feature which Nuendo doesnt do regarding bouncing,I can bounce in one go all the separate BFD tracks which is great ! in Nuendo I would have to do it a track at a time so theres one plus! If Sonar is indeed as multithreaded as it seems then this all might be irellevant as if I built a dual daul opteron or dual dual X2 system which could utilise all 4 processorswith 4,5,6 gigs of usable ram then I wouldn't need to use separate computers.
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 17:00:39
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sorry one other thing,how do I get wavelab to show up as an audio editor in Sonar? I need that pencil tool
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losguy
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/10 17:08:34
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
sorry one other thing,how do I get wavelab to show up as an audio editor in Sonar? I need that pencil tool Cakewalk will not allow Steinberg products on its Tools menu. Seriously though, just search around the forum for a free Tools Menu Editor Utility. Look under "Bruce Ennis" or "Mandala" (both authors of two seprate products to accomplish this).
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/11 07:14:12
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thanks I'll give it a shot,I wonder if Sonar 5 will incorporate a 'proper' audio editor and pool.After a couple of days of playing around with it Sonar isnt far off being a being a great contender with Cubase SX as the No1 PC DAW.
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losguy
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/11 08:43:34
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ORIGINAL: blueyonder
thanks I'll give it a shot,I wonder if Sonar 5 will incorporate a 'proper' audio editor and pool.After a couple of days of playing around with it Sonar isnt far off being a being a great contender with Cubase SX as the No1 PC DAW. Agreed. I don't even mind going out to an external editor, since I already have Audition. That aspect would be better if 1) more editors supported the Tool menu interface (for example, last I checked, Audacity, a nice free editor, does not), and 2) the user had the option of just exporting/editing/importing just the selected clip, in addition to the entire wave file associated with the clip. Exporting just the selection would greatly speed up the transition between tools. But exporting the whole wave has its uses as well, i.e. editing beyond just the selected portion.
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blueyonder
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RE: Few questions from Nuendo user
2005/06/11 10:13:19
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I seem to remember someone saying that using soundforge as their editor then that was indeed the case,just the selection opened up.I'll see if i can get wavelab installed on the tools menu.
One last thing without starting another thread as there seem to be some sonar 'gurus' reading this,importing of broadcast waves does not work.I've tried this on 2 machines now and it still imports at the cursor.I've checked the import broadcast waves at origin box,and when I navigate to import audio file the selelcted files are recognised as broadcast waves complete with time stamp but when I click to import they go straight to the cursor.As i said this happens on 2 systems,anythoughts.
OMF seems to work but I think it only seems to work at 16 bit which is of no use when tansferring 32 bit projects.Hmmmm thats got me thinking maybe Sonar cant read 32 bit BW files properly I'll try some 24 bit broadcast wavs and see.
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