File->Export->Audio file doesn't sound same as when playing the music using the Play butto

Hi Guys,

I'm trying to do an export to a WAV file from Sonar X1, using Dimension Pro virtual synths, being driven by 5 or 6 Midi tracks.

So I solo all the Midi tracks I want, mute a few others I don't want, select the Midi clips I want to be included, and then do a File->Export->Audio.

This does create a .wav file, BUT the mix doesn't sound the same as the sound I get when just playing the music directly in X1. The balance is different. It's as though the balance of the mix created in the WAV file is not being affected by the clip automation, or by the faders on the mixing strips. I'm routing all the strips for the midi tracks into one single master stereo channel, which is about as simple as possible to be.

I'm using simple parameters - 44100 sample rate, 16 bit. I seem to get the same problem whether I choose Source Category of Entire Mix, or Main Outputs. I check all the relevant Mix Enable boxes (I think), so Clip automation ought to be respected.

Anyone got any thoughts about what I might be doing wrong? This is really frustrating - the mix is great when I'm playing directly in X1, but the WAV file sounds really different.

Help!   [...please!]

HunaMan

You don't need to solo any tracks. Just mute the ones you don't want in the final mix and press CTRL-A to select all tracks and then File-Export audio. 

What soundcard are you using? 

Usually, once I get basic midi tracks done (drums, bass and pad), I save the file to a backup, then use the "Bounce to Track" feature on each, deleting the midi as I go (they're backed up remember). This way, I can also remove the SoftSynth as well as boost CPU performance.

The trick here is knowing when to use the "Track" or "Busses" option in the Bounce dialog. If you want dry sound, use Track, otherwise Bus.

There is no need to export / import anything at all until final mix.

Thanks guys.


@Brundlefly:
1) It doesn't seem to be any kind of phasing issue.
2) Don't see why different renderings would make such a big difference to the final mix. Especially if, as you say DimPro doesn't usually cause this kind of problem.

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@Daveny5

"You don't need to solo any tracks. Just mute the ones you don't want in the final mix and press CTRL-A to select all tracks and then File-Export audio. "

I wondered, after your comment, whether having the (S) button set was interfering with the mix, for some reason. I've tried not having the to-be-recorded tracks set to 'Solo'.  Not sure whether this makes a difference.

"What soundcard are you using? "

The device manager says it's an: "IDT high definition audio codec"

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@BitFlipper:

"Every time this problem has come up it's turned out to be a routing problem.

Make sure no tracks or busses are routed directly to the main output (except the master bus, of course). You can test this easily by muting the master bus and verifying that everything silences. Anything still playing is bypassing the master bus."

I THINK THIS IS THE KEY. PLEASE SEE BELOW!

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@Serenarules

Thanks for your comments, but I'm still wrestling with the 'wrong mix' problem... Bounce to track options etc seem to be a bit further down the line...

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@Brundlefly

Thanks for your comments, but I'd like to deal with the 'wrong mix' issue first...

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Above,  BitFlipper said:

"Every time this problem has come up it's turned out to be a routing problem.

Make sure no tracks or busses are routed directly to the main output (except the master bus, of course). You can test this easily by muting the master bus and verifying that everything silences. Anything still playing is bypassing the master bus."

I'm sure you're onto something here.

One thing I've noticed - the output saved in the WAV file seems to have a smaller stereo spread than the original, when played from inside X1, as well as having a slighly different mix. I'm monitoring through headphones and the effect is noticeable. But the automation is working - tracks fade up when they should, for example. So it's not that the automation is being completely bypassed - it's liked it's being partially bypassed. But if I click the mute button on the Master fader (the fader labelled 'Master' with the grey fader control), it's complete silence - there's nothing leaking 'past' it.

BUT there might be a problem here somewhere - I'm a pre-novice with regards to buses and mains etc. I've not set up anything sophisticated, in fact I've relied on defaults completey - prossibly too much reliance! All I did was set up some midi tracks which seem by default to go into a mixer track labelled 'Master', with grey slider controls. I've pretty much ignored the faders, also labelled 'MASTER' with the red fader controls. I'm attaching a screen image showing as much as I can (sorry - couldn't seem to do this). I can't even remember exactly how I created the DimPro-based midi tracks in the first place, but you can see the tracks in the image. I'm beginning to feel that it's a bit of a mess.

Also, I did load an Aria player, but haven't used it - could that be interfering in some way?

But any comments you can make about routing, bearing in mind I'm a novice, would be appreciated.

HunaMan

Thanks Zuma.

So here's a screen dump of X1, the way I've set this piece up. I hope it provides some clues!

HunaMan

Hi Brundlefly,

I'm listening to the exported WAV file by importing it into Adobe Audition, and playing it through that.  In that way, I can easily switch between applications and do a pretty good A-B comparison between the version actually being played by Sonar, and the WAv file exported from it. It's not just a mater of levels, or phase; as I say, the mix seems pretty different. I can't see that the difference could be caused just from playing it back from inside Audition.

Are there any howlingly obvious mistakes shown by the screen dump I linked to? I think perhaps I should wait untill Scott Garrigus's book arrives, and then study all it contains about buses and mixing...

Serenarules


Usually, once I get basic midi tracks done (drums, bass and pad), I save the file to a backup, then use the "Bounce to Track" feature on each, deleting the midi as I go (they're backed up remember). This way, I can also remove the SoftSynth as well as boost CPU performance.

The trick here is knowing when to use the "Track" or "Busses" option in the Bounce dialog. If you want dry sound, use Track, otherwise Bus.

There is no need to export / import anything at all until final mix.

Side note to Serenarules - I can save you some steps, as per Brundlefly's reply to you.  Once you have your MIDI tracks in shape, after bouncing to audio (a good practice always, IMHO, to make sure you're getting what you really intend), just mute and archive your MIDI tracks and associated Audio tracks, turn the synth off, and then with the Track Manager, hide all those tracks.  You've freed up your CPU without having to make multiple versions of the project. 

It's very handy to re-open a single version of the project with everything involved in the project still available in that one folder.

Randy B.

HunaMan

...

I must say, I'm a bit stunned at this. I had no idea they could be so different.  I'm going to put an MP3 version onto my iPod, which is where I really want to play it from, and see how that goes.
...

Well, HunaMan - there shouldn't be any difference.  You're saying the results are so drastically different that it makes one suspect that a different sound source is being recorded when you do the export, like maybe the dreaded Microsoft sounds on your built in sound card.

I highly recommend that you bounce your tracks to audio first, or freeze them, before doing what's supposed to a final mix export.  When you're dealing just with audio in your project as you work on the mix, there's no possibility of unpleasant surprises when you do your final export.  I feel you're missing several steps in putting your projects together.

Randy B.

Hey everyone. I am having the exact same problem with my Sonar X1 with the 1c update (didn't like how the 1d update crashed when you tried to add/change track icons, so I reinstalled up to x1c). My mixes in playback sound notably different than the playback when it's set to audibly bounce down. I have many of my tracks frozen and everything is routed track>busses>master>audio out (soundcard is E-MU1212, by the way). It will sound just fine in the mixing portion, but when I do an audible bounce, I can already hear the levels have shifted. My sessions are about 95% audio tracks, a small handful of midi tracks (frozen), being mixed on a custom-built tower with an i7 processor and 16 gigs of RAM, so it's not on an under-powered computer by any means. I don't know if it's the busses themselves that are going up (it's usually something gets louder), or individual tracks. But it's making mixing REALLY challenging. Any thoughts?

Human was a year ago,,,, He never solved his problem? Anyways , he was using on board sound card ,, nuff said. I think Randy was right, He was hearing Soft synths in Sonar but his export used the MS wavetable. makes perfect sense to me.