A question for yep...

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Peter Rabbit
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2007/03/20 15:01:13 (permalink)

A question for yep...


Hi yep,
This is kind of a long post so I’ll apologize for that in advance.

Most of the time I post in the MC forum even though I’ve been using Sonar PE for about 2 years, so you probably aren’t familiar with me but I have been following your posts for quite some time and you have been a huge help to me as well as others who post in the MC forum whether you’re aware of that or not.

Anyway I purchased a pair of E-MU PM5 monitors recently primarily based on a couple of your posts because I both trust and respect your opinions. Here are your posts if you’d like to refresh your memory:

1. This was the first post I noticed:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=942194&mpage=1&key=monitors

2. This was the second post where you mentioned them again. You have to scroll down the thread a bit to get to your post:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=967351&mpage=1&key=monitors

Now, I understand that everyone’s room is going to be set up differently and no two rooms are going to have the same acoustics. I also understand that I should be doing tone testing procedures in my home studio to determine the strengths and weaknesses of my particular set up and then install traps and such to compensate for any peaks and dips in frequencies and to achieve a result that would be as close to a flat frequency response as possible. But since I’ve just plopped down a huge sum of money on new monitors and also a Motif ES8 I’ve been told by my other half that I’m not allowed to spend any more money on any more recording gear for awhile. This includes even a cheap SPL meter. So, that being said, I’m hoping you might be able to help me by telling me what you’ve noticed with these monitors and perhaps give me few tips.

When I set up my monitors I left both the Low and High frequency roll off controls set at “0” because I thought if I rolled off those frequencies in the monitors that I wouldn’t be getting an accurate representation of all frequencies in my project. After completing my mix, and getting all tracks perfectly seated in the mix (my first really good mix since I started learning the art/science of digital audio production), I submitted it to some friends. I also listened to it myself on a home stereo system and in my car. The general consensus is that the bottom end of my mix is extremely thin. To me this implies that my E-MU monitors must be a bit heavy on the bottom end and I probably compensated by bringing the bottom frequencies of my project down too far in the mix.

I’ve noticed that the roll off settings on the monitors are “filters” and not “shelves”. It appears that the “0” setting rolls off at around 30hz, the “1” setting rolls off at around 60hz, and the “2” setting rolls off at around 80hz. But because the roll offs are somewhat curved, each one actually starts decreasing the volume of the frequency at about 20hz to 50hz above each setting. So, according to the supplied graph shown in the manual that came with the monitors, the “0” setting actually begins to roll off at around 70hz, the “1” setting actually begins to roll off at around 80hz, and the “2” setting actually begins to roll off at around 125hz.

I’m thinking that if I’m rolling off these frequencies in the monitors then I’m not getting to hear the bottom end of the project. (The low bass and the sub-bass frequencies.) This would cause all of my projects to have a bottom end that’s too heavy because I would probably start raising the volume of those frequencies in my project to bring them up to an audible level. Of course even if I raised those frequencies in my project I still wouldn’t be able to hear them because the monitors would be filtering them out. So you can see the dilemma I’m facing.

Therefore, I need to determine where I should set these tone controls on my monitors. So…I was wondering where you have your roll off controls set on your E-MU monitors? And I’m also wondering if you have any suggestions for correcting my problem while keeping in mind that I don’t have even a small budget to work with right now? However I may be able to scrounge up some foam rubber to mount on the walls behind my monitors.

Here’s the project to which I’m referring if you’d like to hear it for yourself. You’ll probably notice that there’s no low end yet on my system with my monitors' controls set to “0” there is certainly plenty of low end. Top of the list entitled “Time To Fly.”
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=326226

Thanks,
Pete

"Creating a bad song takes just as much time and energy as creating a good one. The problem is that you don't know it's a bad song until someone tells you, and by then it's too late."
P. Rabbit
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12 Replies Related Threads
    lazarous
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/20 16:15:10 (permalink)
    Peter:

    I'm not Yep, but I'd be willing to bet you need some bass trapping in your mixing room. It sounds like your room has at least one serious node that's really freaking out, and because of that you're not hearing a "flat" mix.

    Most rooms need a TON of treatment to sound good.

    Could you please describe the room you currently mix in? It might help us give you some suggestions.

    Is there any acoustical treatment in there currently?

    Have you listened to your mixes in different positions within the room itself?

    Here's an example of why I'm asking this particular question: In my room, the mix position has a little bit of a bass bump around 50 hz. This works out great for me, as I tend to like slightly bassier mixes. Because of the natural bump, I mix something I like, but it ends up translating REALLY well to other listening environments.

    At the same time, the couch behind my mixing position has a HUGE bass node, which clients completely dig! I get to mix without them asking me to crank up the bottom end like they're used to in their subwoofer-filled cars and trucks, and the mix still translates really well!

    Things to think about, questions to answer! Looking forward to helping as much as I can!

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    yep
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/20 16:23:12 (permalink)
    Hi Pete,
    Thanks for the compliments. All of your thinking is exactly on the right track. Corey already gave some excellent advice, and bass-trapping is a very effective way to treat most home studios that can also be very inexpensive.

    One suggestion I would make is to try and decouple the speakers from whatever they're sitting on. Something like Auralex Mopads works pretty good. Sandbags or plates of lead or mass-loaded vinyl are even better. If you're really on a shoestring you could use try old rags or something... If the speakers are on a resonant surface such as a wooden desk or anything that's rigid and not extremely heavy, then they will couple with the surface they are on and may produce a very unbalanced sound as a result.

    Also make sure the speakers are angled and positioned properly. If you can pull them out a few feet from the walls that will lower the bass build-up. If the speakers are backed up right against a wall that is a likely culprit, since the bass that radiates around the back of the speakers will bounce back and essentially double the low-frequency content.

    If all that fails, then you can try using the bass rolloff switch or you can try putting a shelving filter of some sort on your main outputs, or you can try just compensating for the fact of the bass-heavy monitoring position by shelving up your lows by 6db or whatever. It'll be a matter of a little bit of trial-and-error to see what gives you the best results. I think the bass rolloff switch on those speakers is really meant more for tuning them to go with a subwoofer than for "room tuning," so I'd probably try one of the other options first, but check the manual.

    One final point I would make is to watch your listening levels while monitoring, since volume has a big effect on frequency perception. The ear has a kind of built-in frequency curve that zeroes in on the presence range of quiet sounds. Specifically, highs and lows tend to be exaggerated quite a bit at high volumes, and tend to diminish at low volumes. I usually like to monitor at pretty quiet levels, like below conversation level, since mixes that sound good quiet almost always sound even better loud. Periodically I'll check the low end by turning up the monitors, but for the most part I focus on getting a good quiet mix. If you mix with the volume turned up, then you may be getting an exaggerated sense of the low end when you monitor (not to mention that your ears will hold up better at quieter volumes).

    Hope some of that helps. I really like those speakers and I think you'll find that mixes made on them translate very well once you get everything sorted.

    Cheers.
    post edited by yep - 2007/03/20 16:24:43

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    Peter Rabbit
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/20 18:17:19 (permalink)
    Hi guys,
    I'd like to thanks you both for your quick response.

    lazarous:
    you need some bass trapping in your mixing room.

    I ablsolutely agree with that statement. I just don't have anything to measure frequencies with to make accurate determinations. I did find a website that has free downloads of low frequency tones. Actually it's a free download of a Sonar project with the tones included. You simply downoload the project which has one track with the tones and another track that is set to record from an omni-directional mic. (But I don't have an omni-directional mic.) Once the downloaded project runs through all of the tones and the monitor's output is recorded onto the second track, you simply look at the wav form and it shows you exactly where the peaks and dips are. Really quite nifty especially considering I use Sonar6 and the project plays very nicely with no trouble at all.

    You're supposed to use an omni-directional mic. I have only dynamic and condensor mics but thought perhaps I could just get by using one of those. Even though I know that these mics will only capture the sound coming from the direction that they are pointed and they will not capture the sound coming from behind or from either side. But if I ran a series of 4 tests with the mic located where my head would be if I was mixing and pointed in different directions for each test:
    1. With the mic pointed straight ahead between the two monitors.
    2. With the mic pointed 90 degrees to the right.
    3. With the mic pointed 90 degrees to the left.
    4. With the mic pointed 180 degrees from the monitors so it would pick up the sound from behind me.

    After taking these reading I should be able to determine what areas in the room need to have bass traps installed.

    Now...that being said...I am confused about the results of the testing. Let me explain first and then I'll post a link. In the video that I'm about to post here, they explain the whole process. But where I get confused is when I look at the wav form I see huge peaks and dips. Of course the before-traps wav form is going to have peaks and dips. However,even though I can see improvements in areas that they point out, I am still seeing peaks and dips. I think perhaps I'm not understanding what I'm supposed to be seeing. I would think that after running a test after the room has been properly treated with bass traps then you should see a pretty solid-bar looking wav form with no peaks and/or dips. But that's not what I see when I look at the wav form in the video. So this just has me really confused. Maybe if you looked at the video you could explain to me why there is still peaks and dips even after they have treated the room with bass traps. The video runs about 19 minutes but if you download the video file it only takes a couple of minutes and you can scroll ahead to the end to see the after wav form that I'm talking about without having to sit through the whole 19 minute video, although I think it's a pretty interesting video and extremely helpful for anyone who doesn't already have a solid knowlege of bass traps. And the Sonar project is quite a nifty tool and it would prevent the need for buying any testing equipment if I knew what to look for in the wav form. Well...peaks and dips of course...but why am I still seeing peaks and dips?

    Here's the link for the video and the Sonar project used to test frequency response.
    For the video scroll down to where it says MINITRAPS DEMONSTRATION.
    For the Sonar frequency testing project you have to scroll all the down to the bottom of the page where it says Sonar Project Download. This would really be a huge help to me if I could learn just what it is I'm supposed to be seeing in the wav form. As I said, even after they installed the bass traps in the video I can still see drastic peaks and dips in the wav form.
    http://www.realtraps.com/videos.htm
    Could you please describe the room you currently mix in?

    The room is a spare bedroom and is quite small. It's about 10' x 11' and is carpeted. I have my workstation set up along the longest wall and centered in the middle of that wall. Monitors are at ear level while sitting in my chair and they are placed so that it form an equalateral triangle with each side measuring about 3 feet. The room is carpeted. The walls are sheetrock. The ceiling is 8' high. There is one other small workstation, a book case, and a few file cabinets in the room. There is no other furniture. The monitors sit about 1 foot away from the wall. (Which is probably why I'm hearing a lot of bass frequencies.) But unfortunately there's really not enough space in the room to allow me to pull my workstation further away from the wall. There is currently no acoustical treatment in the room. (Other than the floor carpet.)
    Have you listened to your mixes in different positions within the room itself?

    Yes, I have. And there is definately a lot more lower registry of frequencies when I'm sitting directly in front of the monitors.
    Hope this gives you a better idea of my current status. And also would be a huge help if you could explain to me why I still those huge peaks and dips in the wav form in the video that I linked you to even after they finished installing the bass traps. If I knew what I was supposed to be looking for in the wav form I would be able to take readings myself and create some make-shift bass traps out of polyurathane foam rubber.
    Thanks, Pete

    yep:
    decouple the speakers from whatever they're sitting on.

    Yes, you're right. I should have mentioned that my monitors are sitting on 1" foam rubber. It was part of the packing material in the box for my Motif. LOL Yea, OK...I'm cheap.
    If you can pull them out a few feet from the walls that will lower the bass build-up.

    I could pull the monitors another 4" or so away but that's about all I could do because I can't pull my workstation any further away from the wall without having it sit it the middle of the room. The room is only 10' wide. I have my workstation and chair which takes up about 6 of those feet and another small workstation with a computer (the family computer) behind my chair.
    you can try putting a shelving filter of some sort on your main outputs

    That's how I was originally going to correct the problem. Then during my 10 hours of research on the subject I dicovered that you're not supposed to do that. Supposedly, even if you use a very narrow Q setting, you can't get a Q setting narrow enough to raise or lower those peaked or dipped frequencies without effecting other frequencies around them. And then you have another whole problem to deal with. Of course this information is coming from a company that wants to sell you bass traps.
    watch your listening levels while monitoring

    Yes, you're correct. I already do this. I use volume levels in the same way you do. When I first started learning I used to keep them up high all the time so I could hear. But I know better than that now. But a very good point.

    I suppose I could ask the same thing from you...If you could view the video that I linked to and explain to me why I'm seeing peaks and dips in the wav form even after they've installed the bass traps. If I knew what I was supposed to be looking for in this wav form I think I'd be able to correct these problems I'm experiencing.
    Here's the link again.
    The video is where it says MINITRAPS DEMONSTRATION
    The Sonar project file is at the bottom of the page.
    http://www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

    Thanks again,
    Pete
    post edited by Peter Rabbit - 2007/03/20 18:46:44

    "Creating a bad song takes just as much time and energy as creating a good one. The problem is that you don't know it's a bad song until someone tells you, and by then it's too late."
    P. Rabbit
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    yep
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/20 19:34:38 (permalink)
    Peter,
    Something to be aware of is that you don't need to do any measurements to do effective bass trapping. The surest and most effective way to treat a small room is just to soak up all the lows or as much as you can. Trying to "tune" bass traps to a small room is not only a lot of work, it's actually less effective than simply trapping everything.

    So some rockwool stuffed in the corners or even bales of hay or pink fiberglass or old mattresses work great from an acoustical point of view.

    FWIW.

    Cheers.

    PS, even better than asking ME to explain that video is to ask Ethan Winer, the man behind realtraps. He posts here all the time. He is extremely helpful even if you don't buy his products.
    post edited by yep - 2007/03/20 19:36:56

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    Peter Rabbit
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/20 23:01:43 (permalink)

    I think you're probably right. I'm probably making this way more difficult and more technical than it needs to be. All I really have to go by is the research that I've been doing on the internet and I think my searches are pulling up procedures for professional recording studios. And although my goal is to eventually turn out recordings that sound like they came from a professional studio I'm not really set up to be a professional studio. I'm just a little guy, in a little room, with a little budget and big expectations.

    I think you've given me good advice and it has been well received. Thanks again,
    Pete

    "Creating a bad song takes just as much time and energy as creating a good one. The problem is that you don't know it's a bad song until someone tells you, and by then it's too late."
    P. Rabbit
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    Rev. Jem
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/20 23:21:06 (permalink)
    Yeah - as you said, even just doing something basic like rolling up a coupla old duvets & sticking them in the room corners will give you a good idea.

    If that helps and you want to make something cheap but much better-looking (studio aesthetics can be a great source of inspiration), you can then hop over to my good friend Tim's website & have a butcher's at his Bass Traps section.
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    jacktheexcynic
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/21 19:54:23 (permalink)
    i skimmed this thread so forgive me if someone has mentioned this already:

    what are your monitors sitting on? if you have a wood desk with stands (like i do) consider hiding $40 from your s.o. and getting some auralex mopads. in my situation they were well worth the money. also, if your monitors happen to be placed close to a wall, try to move them away from it. i moved my desk away from the wall maybe 1' and it made as much difference as the mopads did. my bass response is a lot tighter now.

    also in case it hasn't been said, you should give yourself some time to learn your monitors. testing your mixes on different sources is a great way to learn them. make notes on what is off and then try to locate that same sound in your monitors. you will soon learn which frequencies you have to watch out for. another way to learn them is to listen to commercial cds on them and then compare to your own mixes (try to use cds that sound the closest to your songs). my mixes were always bass-thin until i started listening to some of my favorite commercial songs on my monitors and "calibrated" my ears. now i have a vague idea of what i'm going for in my own mixes. =)

    - jack the ex-cynic
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    Peter Rabbit
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/22 00:38:14 (permalink)

    Hi jacktheexcynic,
    Thanks for the response. Your suggestions are good ones.
    My monitors are sitting on 1" of gray foam and are located on my my workstation shelves on either side of my computer monitor.

    I've determined that the 1" foam is not sufficient enough to prevent the monitors from coupling with the workstation shelves. I believe you're correct. I really need to invest in some Auralex Mopads as yep also suggested.

    But it goes beyond that. I've also decided that I need to install acoustic foam on the wall behind my monitors as well as corner bass traps in the area where the wall meets the cieling above my monitors. Theres also an adjacent area that needs corner bass traps as well. All in all it looks like about a $250.00 job to make things right. I can't use bales of hay or fiberglass insulation since this is a room in our home and it has to look nice.

    Also my workstation has an adjustable shelf for my computer monitor which is one of the reasons I bought the workstation in the first place. I dropped the shelf down to lower my monitor. The purpose of doing this was so I could position my head so that I'm looking staight ahead and a bit down while working. I've been having severe neck problems because my monitor was positioned too high. While working on the computer 8-10 hours per day the neck pain was becoming unbearable. Although the dropped shelf for the computer monitor has relieved my neck pain by about 80% it appears to be causing a "pocket" that allows those low frequencies to bounce around. So I'm going to have to figure out a way to trap that sound as well.

    I've just recently purchased these monitors. I got a great deal and they're really good monitors. I just have to set the room up properly so they can do thier job and I can do mine.

    Anyway, my solution is to get Auralex Mopads, acoustic foam, and corner foam bass traps. I'm pretty sure that will do the trick.

    Thanks again,
    Pete

    "Creating a bad song takes just as much time and energy as creating a good one. The problem is that you don't know it's a bad song until someone tells you, and by then it's too late."
    P. Rabbit
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/22 08:11:59 (permalink)
    If your room is rectangular you can do some basic math to predict where some of the resonance is going to interfere with your monitoring.

    You may already own some useful bass traps.... couches, overstuffed chairs etc. maybe your other half will let you bring some furniture etc into your mix room?

    best regards,
    mike
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/22 08:14:31 (permalink)
    "corner foam bass traps"

    don't do it... search out info on bass traps and consider using hi density fiberglass stuctures. Its a better value in all regards.

    mike
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    Peter Rabbit
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/22 13:15:46 (permalink)
    mike_mccue:
    "corner foam bass traps"
    don't do it... search out info on bass traps and consider using hi density fiberglass stuctures. Its a better value in all regards.

    Thanks for your post. Actually, after reading your post I went back and did some more research and you are absolutely correct.

    Now I've changed my mind and decided that I'm going to build panels (both diffusers and bass traps) myself by using 4" Owens Corning 705-FRK or equivalent.

    I'm pretty handy with tools and with some creativity I think I can make some intresting designs and use some attractive fabric for covering that will lend itself well to our home decor and will also achieve the affect that I need to improve the acoustics of my room.

    Thanks for posting. It motivated me to investigate and research things a bit more.
    Pete
    post edited by Peter Rabbit - 2007/03/22 13:16:53

    "Creating a bad song takes just as much time and energy as creating a good one. The problem is that you don't know it's a bad song until someone tells you, and by then it's too late."
    P. Rabbit
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: A question for yep... 2007/03/22 20:04:23 (permalink)
    It was a pleasure to get to make a suggestion,

    best,
    mike
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