[UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo

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torhan
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2007/03/28 13:17:20 (permalink)

[UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo

I have my eye on the Novation Remote Zero SL. Anyone have any experience with this? I'm searching the Sonar forums...but in the meantime, let me know what you think!

Thansk!
post edited by torhan - 2007/04/02 10:55:44

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    b rock
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    RE: Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/03/28 16:04:56 (permalink)
    let me know what you think!
    I think that my reply was so damn opinionated, I'd better just PM you instead.
    Next opinion?
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    AT
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    RE: Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/03/28 16:07:49 (permalink)
    Again, it seems that SONAR (or your DAW) would be the place to address assigning control rather than the controller itself, but I'm already running into ACT restrictions (see post below about novation LE which doesn't switch elements for Rapture). Until you start using a product and get far into it is hard to tell if it will do what you want, and then, of course, it is too late.

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    torhan
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    RE: Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/03/28 22:58:57 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: AT

    Again, it seems that SONAR (or your DAW) would be the place to address assigning control rather than the controller itself, but I'm already running into ACT restrictions (see post below about novation LE which doesn't switch elements for Rapture). Until you start using a product and get far into it is hard to tell if it will do what you want, and then, of course, it is too late.


    Gotcha. I'll watch that thread to see if anything gets resolved.

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    torhan
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    RE: Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/02 10:54:54 (permalink)
    I picked up a Novaton Remote 25 SL this weekend.


    After spending a few hours trying to figure things out, I'm still overwhelmed-- as this is my first attempt using a true midi controller/control surface. After thinking about it, I want to use the Remote to mainly control Rapture and DimPro, my 2 go-to synths. I'm used to mixing on screen and controlling the transport, etc, with my mouse/qwerty.

    I was able to add the Remote as a Control Surface in Sonar. I have not yet installed the Automap software or the Template Editor. I want to see if ACT will work first.

    Since the Remote does not have templates for either of those synths, I choose the User1 (a blank) template (#36) to create a new one. I inserted Rapture and DimPro. In the ACT Midi Controller property page, I choose the preset “Novation Remote SL” and controller options change when I click on either synth – so far so good.

    So now I need to update all the ACT controller Cells to things that make sense. I can click on the Cell > Midi Learn > move Encoder 1 and it works – I can control LoKey1 setting (the default setting for that Cell) in Rapture, how lovely. But I can’t seem to change what that Cell controls in Rapture. For instance, to control Element 1 > DSP 1’s level.

    So do I need to first setup the Remote template so that all of the Encoders, Pots and Sliders each transmit a different midi cc? Then ACT midi learn everything? Or just Rapture midi learn without ACT?

    How do the Remote’s Encoders, Pots and Sliders correspond to the ACT property page’s Cells? I understand R1 = Rotary 1, S1 = Slider 1…but what about the Pots and DrumPads? Does the third row of ACT Cells correspond to the 2 rows of Buttons below the Sliders on the Remote or the Buttons inbetween the Rotaries and Pots?

    I understand that once a Remote Rapture is saved, I can group 6 Rapture templates together to control each of the 6 Elements, but that is a long way away [;-)]

    Can anyone shed some light?!?!

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    torhan
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    RE: Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/02 21:05:19 (permalink)
    I got a response in the Sonar forum suggesting to try Automap...that it's a lot easier. I'll post back tomorrow.

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    Nick P
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/03 04:58:08 (permalink)
    It looks like you already copped your controller but my two cents is that new Akai looks pretty cool.

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    Dan_E10
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 10:21:14 (permalink)
    So do I need to first setup the Remote template so that all of the Encoders, Pots and Sliders each transmit a different midi cc? Then ACT midi learn everything? Or just Rapture midi learn without ACT?


    Torhan,
    Maybe you've already got things figured out, but I'm also in the process of setting up my controller (Axiom 61) for Sonar Home Studio 6 and Rapture. I've played around a bit with ACT learn and assigning knobs and sliders to controls in Rapture. I haven't tried this for Rapture but I did reassign some of the ACT "cells" to other functions that I wanted to control. I don't know if this is the same in Sonar, but in the ACT panel in Home Studio 6 you need to select the cell you want to change. I'm not at my DAW, and I can't quite remember if you do this from the tab with the table of cells or from the second tab(advanced or options?). There will be drop downs with all the controls you can pick. Just select a different one and go back to the first tab and you should see it show up in the cell. I have to try this with Rapture to see which controllers show up. So far I did this with the transport buttons. Record was set up as shift/play so I reassigned it to it's own cell to assign the record button to. I'm hoping that with Rapture or other softsynths in focus I'll see a whole bunch of softsynth parameters show up in that drop down.
    Dan
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    torhan
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 12:10:08 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Dan_E10

    So do I need to first setup the Remote template so that all of the Encoders, Pots and Sliders each transmit a different midi cc? Then ACT midi learn everything? Or just Rapture midi learn without ACT?


    Torhan,
    Maybe you've already got things figured out, but I'm also in the process of setting up my controller (Axiom 61) for Sonar Home Studio 6 and Rapture. I've played around a bit with ACT learn and assigning knobs and sliders to controls in Rapture. I haven't tried this for Rapture but I did reassign some of the ACT "cells" to other functions that I wanted to control. I don't know if this is the same in Sonar, but in the ACT panel in Home Studio 6 you need to select the cell you want to change. I'm not at my DAW, and I can't quite remember if you do this from the tab with the table of cells or from the second tab(advanced or options?). There will be drop downs with all the controls you can pick. Just select a different one and go back to the first tab and you should see it show up in the cell. I have to try this with Rapture to see which controllers show up. So far I did this with the transport buttons. Record was set up as shift/play so I reassigned it to it's own cell to assign the record button to. I'm hoping that with Rapture or other softsynths in focus I'll see a whole bunch of softsynth parameters show up in that drop down.
    Dan


    Thanks for the info. I saw that "Options" tab, but I guess I didn't try hard enough. BTW, Novation's Template Editor scans your VST directory and imports (well, attempts to import) the available parameters. The problem is that it not able to read DXi (which was confirmed by someone who received an email from Novation).

    I actually put it back in its box -- was getting frustrated. I need a little time off from it, to clear my head. I do have like 24 more days to return it...lol

    I guess I'll have to try again today armed with more info.

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    Pablo1234
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 15:18:16 (permalink)
    I set my Axiom 61 up without using Enigma(I have problems with it sometimes) and sonar 3 and my Korg DL and Rapture(Just started with it today) With verry few problems. This is without the ACT thing(whitch I'll have this week hopefully). I pearsonaly like it alot, but I am a guitar player not a synth guy(Yet). I feal like I'm back to lisp routines for some reason(Any one have a clue why I would feal that way(Hope I didn't forget any bracets))
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    torhan
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 16:07:45 (permalink)
    Using ACT:
    So, how do you change, for instance, Bank 1, Rotary 2 (ACT cell) to something other than the default "LoKey 01" for Rapture? I've tried clicking on the ACT button on Rapture, clicking the parameter in Rapture, then moving a slider on the hardware, then click ACT button again. Nothing happens. I can click on the ACT cell > Midi Learn > move hardware, and it works...but I don't want to control LoKey 01 with Rotary 2.

    Pablo1234 -
    Are you able to set up a template on the Axiom, as follows (for Rapture), for instance:

    Rotary 1 = Element 1 Cutoff
    Rotary 2 = Element 1 Res
    Rotary 3 = Element 1 DSP 1 Level
    Rotary 4 = Element 2 DSP 2 Level
    Rotary 5 = Element 2 Insert FX Feedback
    Rotary 6 = Element 3 Insert FX Res

    ??



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    Pablo1234
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 16:33:05 (permalink)
    OK hear is what I did to get them to work, I don't use Enigma as it don't always work.

    1. Right click on the Element 1 cuttoff knob and select a cc number you are not using elsware. (I am using cc 20 - cc 25)
    2. change the control on the axiom you want to controll Element 1 with on the keybord(Sliders are my facorite but rotorys are cool too) then press the channel assign button and press the + or - buttons untill it says 20.

    once you have made this change move the knob or slider again and see if it works. if it dose then great if not make sure the control is set to either the midi channel you keep Rapture on or make sure its on global or 00 by moving the knob or slider and pressing the channel assign button. If it don't work then post back and I'll talk you through using enigma to do it(I don't like enigma much except to back up my programs).
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 16:55:19 (permalink)
    Torhan,
    Here's what I did to get a setup similar to what you've just described above.

    -Create an ACT control surface. I think I just chose default and used my Axiom as the input.

    -Open up the ACT panel. I did this with the focus on the general Home Studio workspace, not with Rapture selected.

    -Midi learn for each rotary control and slider in the cells in the ACT table. Save as new preset. You have to midi learn the controls here in the table first for them to be assignable with ACT learn, otherwise I ran into the same problem as you: ACT learning in Rapture had no effect.

    -Next go to Rapture and click the ACT learn button. Move Rapture knobs and then Axiom knobs and unclick ACT learn. Then they worked. I haven't tried it yet, but I bet the cells in the table update when you do this. Anyway, I didn't have a problem with getting stuck with lokey assigned to a specific controller. It seems like ACT reassigns that controller when you ACT learn it. Just make sure you have midi learned the knob or slider you want to assign to a cell in the ACT table AND a control in your softsynth. That being said, I have yet to try it out at home.

    The part I haven't figured out yet, is what do you do with the extra knobs and sliders on your controller? My Axiom has 9 sliders and 8 rotaries and your Remote has a bunch more than that. It seems like ACT might be limited to 16 continuous knobs and sliders total. I haven't figured out if the other banks are there to allow extra controls or just different mappings. I hope this helps.
    Dan
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    torhan
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 16:58:32 (permalink)
    Dan --
    I will have to try it that way -- after dinner though...lol


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    torhan
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 18:13:59 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Dan_E10

    Torhan,
    Here's what I did to get a setup similar to what you've just described above.

    -Create an ACT control surface. I think I just chose default and used my Axiom as the input.

    -Open up the ACT panel. I did this with the focus on the general Home Studio workspace, not with Rapture selected.

    -Midi learn for each rotary control and slider in the cells in the ACT table. Save as new preset. You have to midi learn the controls here in the table first for them to be assignable with ACT learn, otherwise I ran into the same problem as you: ACT learning in Rapture had no effect.

    -Next go to Rapture and click the ACT learn button. Move Rapture knobs and then Axiom knobs and unclick ACT learn. Then they worked. I haven't tried it yet, but I bet the cells in the table update when you do this. Anyway, I didn't have a problem with getting stuck with lokey assigned to a specific controller. It seems like ACT reassigns that controller when you ACT learn it. Just make sure you have midi learned the knob or slider you want to assign to a cell in the ACT table AND a control in your softsynth. That being said, I have yet to try it out at home.



    Great - it's working. Weird thing happened though -- I clicked the Act Learn, clicked Filter 1, moved hardward, clicked Act learn again, but the Resonance knob was being controlled. Any success moving from one instance of Rapture to another?

    ORIGINAL: Dan_E10
    The part I haven't figured out yet, is what do you do with the extra knobs and sliders on your controller? My Axiom has 9 sliders and 8 rotaries and your Remote has a bunch more than that. It seems like ACT might be limited to 16 continuous knobs and sliders total. I haven't figured out if the other banks are there to allow extra controls or just different mappings. I hope this helps.
    Dan


    Good question.

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    Pablo1234
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 18:25:21 (permalink)
    you don't have to use act, from my understanding its quicker but not always better. When cakewalk is in focus and rapture is closed I still have control over rapture with my faders unlike the way act uses it. With the axiom you can set up 20 programs and 4 groups and such their are essentialy 20x4x 9sliders avalible to program. Thats alot and I use my zones 1-4 for control of 4 synths at any given time. Verry quick to change from one to another or control any of them at the same time. Act seams kind of limitting in this regard, but my setup makes my head spin also. I had to write my own manual so I could find out what buttons I need to push to get control of stuff, feals more like a hardware synth to me that way.

    Exampkle is I have zone 1 on Wavestation, zone 2 on M1, zone 3 on rapture and zone 4 on a second Wavestation. I can play them all at the same time for layered type stuff or control them one at a time. Granted I'm not a keybordest yet so I get realy confused as to what I wan't to do creativly but I don't ever have to go putz with getting focus on anywindow to play them.
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 20:53:21 (permalink)
    Pablo,
    I agree that ACT isn't always better. I was going to start setting up presets for my Axiom when the Home Studio 6 upgrade came out. So instead I've been spending time figuring that out and trying to learn ACT. ACT is really cool in that you don't have to worry about loading up presets on your midi controller, you just assign controls to the ACT cells and then ACT learn those to your synths and environment. Then you don't have to worry about changing presets. However unless I'm not completely understanding this ACT plugin it does look like you're limited to 16 controls, and 8 buttons + shift. I'm thinking that some kind of hybrid approach with the most used controls assigned with ACT and then using the Axiom's presets to set up extra controls for whatever else I want to control might provide the best of both worlds.

    That being said I think mod wheel, pitch bend, pedal and aftertouch routed through the mod matrix provide quite a bit of controllability. I'm not sure how much I'll need need to use all the extra knobs and sliders when programming patches at least.
    -Dan
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    Dan_E10
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 21:31:24 (permalink)
    Whew, okay after playing around a little more and actually READING some more of the online help for ACT I realized what I wrote was not quite correct. You have 4 banks in the ACT plugin. It still appears that you only get to assign 16 knobs or sliders and 8 buttons+shift but you have 4 banks of parameter assignments to choose from. So taking Rapture as an example, you can ACT learn element 1 Filter1 cutoff to slider 1 in bank 1 of your ACT preset. Then you can switch to bank 2 and ACT learn element 2 Filter1 cutoff to slider 1 again. Finally you can assign a button to switch banks. So now you can have that slider controlling filter cutoff on element 1. Then when you want to work with element 2, you press the button you assigned to "Next Rotaries and Sliders Bank". Now you're on bank 2 and slider 1 controls filter cutoff for the second element. You could do the same having bank 3 set up for element 3 and bank 4 for element 4. Too bad there aren't 6 banks... I might be nice if, as mentioned in another post on this forum the ACT focus updated depending on which element you chose but that sounds like it might be a little ways off.

    I guess if your controller has more than a total of 16 knobs or sliders you could leave the extras assigned to midi controllers and just midi learn those. They wouldn't change with focus though the way the ACT assigned controllers would. Okay, back to reading the manual.
    Dan
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    Pablo1234
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/04 21:42:52 (permalink)
    Yes, Act is one of the things I'm looking forword to when I get sonar 6 later this week. But the real problem will be that I'll need to rewrite my manual lol. For me I have the korg set up the way I like it for playing, I use the rotory knobs to change patches and when they fix the bank change thing I'll be using 4 knobs 2 for preset changes and 2 for bank changes, on zones 2 and 4 or midi channels 2 and 4. Theis are my playing instraments and so far I like being able to change on the fly like that. I absolutly hate the fact that you can't change patches in Raptur, one of the reasons I got the axiom was to limit my qurty keybord time. It will be fine once I have patches made and selected for my songs but changing them is a real pain for me. I have to get up and walk over to the computer to do it. I also plan on getting another monitor to put over buy my pc, but untill then I'm jumping around like a rat in a frying pan.


    quetion, will rapture work in KORE? That would be sweet if it did.
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    torhan
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/06 17:08:36 (permalink)
    It's still not working when I switch between instances of Rapture. It works with the first instance -- the one used to ACT learn everything -- but if I change focus to the 2nd instance, nothing responds.

    I haven't tried this, but what happens if I setup my REMOTE template to control Rapture as follows:

    Rotary 1 = Element 1 Filter 1 Cutoff
    Rotary 2 = Element 1 Res 1
    ....until I fill up all the available controls on REMOTE and all the ACT cells are setup.

    Now, I want to control DimPro. I have to create a new REMOTE template and a new ACT Cell template, etc. right? So, if I want to switch back and forth between DimPro and Rapture, I have to change the ACT template each time, right?

    I'm not 100% sold on this

    ******************************

    REGULAR MIDI LEARN -

    Ok, I launch Rapture, setup a quick REMOTE template, and Midi Learn some controls across Rapture and its Elements. Works good.

    I can open another instance of Rapture...and great -- Midi learn still works!

    However, if I want to add another Midi Learn, it only works on the instance with focus--not on the other already opened instances. If I launch a 3rd instance, then this will have all Midi learns assigned correctly. Is this normal?

    Ok, so is there a way to Midi Forget everything at once?

    I closed the project, re-opened, and Midi Learn is still working. And now, the instance that didn't pick up the added Midi Learn, is working correctly. Thumbs up!

    I guess I could create another REMOTE template just for DimPro.

    For some reason, I think this way is soooo much easier than messing with ACT I may end up keeping the REMOTE after all..lol











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    Pablo1234
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    RE: [UPDATED-Help needed] Recommend a controller for Sonar/Rapture combo 2007/04/06 17:29:18 (permalink)
    I don't have ACT yet, but I really don't see me using it too much as I can set up 20 banks to control 4 Synths at the same time. As long as each get their own midi channel It works great for me. I have just changed my setup, I run Rapture on Midi Chanel 1, I then set my Sliders up from midi CC 20-28 and change their channel to midi channel 1, Then I have Wavestation on Midi Channel 2 and set up Zone 2 the same as I did for Zone 1 but on channel 2 instead, Then repeat for zone 3 Channel 3 with M1 and zone 4 channel 4 for another Rapture. This way I don't need to be at my PC. My transport buttons are set up on Channel 16 with Midi cc 50 - 55 This keeps everything separate, Also I open BFD Lt and set it up on channel 10 so I can use my trigger pads for some sounds. I will certainly try ACT out when I get it, see if I can make my schema more complicated than it is just to streach my brain a bit more, I hear their is a pop warranty with GOD if you over inflate.

    Sonar 3, Sonar 6, Rapture, Korg Legacy Digital, BFD Lt, Midi OX, MrTramp

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