Robomusic
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/04 17:11:46
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This is nothing new, the debate over live VS sampled. Is not any synth in the world just sampled sounds? there is not a synth made that does not use some sort of sampled or replicated sound from some live instrument. Are only accoustic piano really keyboards? Are not most songs just bit and piece mimicry of other songs? Should we toss out the 12 bar blues cause they are rooted in the same base structure? Are only instrument players artist? With loops do we draw the line at one shots or are all wave file drums not artistry? Is a drum machine not cool, or does it have to be a set of drums with a live drummer? All programs like BiaB or Jammer do is to build structured backing tracks for what ever chord structure you program in, the same as if you had three other musicians sitting in, they would play the chords and note to accompany you, they sound similar, so because it is sampled from a computer it is not real?
I guess it boils down to one's interpretation of what music is. I mean should i never play a "C" chord cause someone else played it first. Maybe that is going to far, but what difference does it make where the music was put together from, as long as it sounds goodand people enjoy it.
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dewdman42
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/04 17:25:39
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ORIGINAL: Robomusic
I guess it boils down to one's interpretation of what music is. I mean should i never play a "C" chord cause someone else played it first. Maybe that is going to far, but what difference does it make where the music was put together from, as long as it sounds goodand people enjoy it.
Because over time, the level of craftsmanship is slowly creeping down, as is the level of artistry. The public audience is also slowly lowering their standards of what they "enjoy". What difference does it make? It makes a HUGE difference if you really care about music as an artform. If you don't care, and just want to puke out more mediocre garbage that people will "enjoy", then by all means....acidize...
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orangesporanges
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/04 17:53:46
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Michael,
I'm not sure if this is still the case, but my BIAB 2005 came with the Roland VSC, which I have found to be a fairly decent GM sound module soft synth. (Better than Cakewalk TTS-1 at least!).That alone might make it worth your while. As far as the rest of this thread is heading, you have to draw your own line between inspiration and plagiarism. You can take either argument to ridiculous extremes. Everything in man's evolution, mentally, physically, philosphically,spiritually,has been arrived at while standing on the shoulders of those before him.
So, is the question, "is this inspiration/tool or cheating/shortcut?" or is the question "who cares?"
Peace,
Tim
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Robomusic
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/04 18:07:50
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There has been a ton of "craftsmen" over the years trhat were really crapsmen, and there are a ton of young talent from the computer age that are just that Talent. There are those who bang out a bad drum track on a accoutic drum kit, and those who excell at it, then again there are those who loop together a bad drum track with Acidized loops, and those who excell at it. Not everyone is a drummer, or a guitarist, or a keyboard player. Both electronically and analog wise both take talent to do RIGHT. I will grant you it is easy to acid loop together a cheap pop song today and there are those who will buy it, but I submit that that has to do with the fickled consumer, and the marketing arms of record companies. There were cheesy poorly made pop songs selling millions long before acid loops came out. I have heard some real garbage "puked" out from live musicians. This really has nothing to do with Acidized loops or Synthesized music being made with REAL talent or not. It is part of our society today. I have heard Acidized tracks that sound as good as anything played live, and i have heard live groups that can't play worth beans as well. We accept far less today for entertainment in all arenas TV, Music, Theatre, you name it. I just think to lump all artist who use "artificial" instruments together as puke is being a tad (no offense meant) narrow minded. I mean is not 90% of what we do here Digital reproduction of analog sounds, So what do we have to do to be true artist go back to old style tape machines? Although i will admit it all started to go bad with flock of seagulls!! 
post edited by Robomusic - 2007/06/04 18:12:14
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holderofthehorns
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/04 19:12:50
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And, Band In A Box doesn't get drunk and puke on your floor.
And it works at 3 am on Sunday.
The Chet and the Merle patterns are great.
And I have yet to hear it complain.
That said, it is only a good starting point.
Eric Anderson HolderOfTheHorns - It's a Viking thing.
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pjfarr
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/04 19:16:30
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ORIGINAL: dewdman42
...over time, the level of craftsmanship is slowly creeping down, as is the level of artistry. The public audience is also slowly lowering their standards of what they "enjoy". What difference does it make? It makes a HUGE difference if you really care about music as an artform. If you don't care, and just want to puke out more mediocre garbage that people will "enjoy", then by all means....acidize...
Whoa, that was a pretty ostentatious statement, man. Okay, we get it. You're an ARTist. Ooooo!
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pjfarr
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/04 19:18:33
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ORIGINAL: holderofthehorns
And, Band In A Box doesn't get drunk and puke on your floor.
And it works at 3 am on Sunday.
The Chet and the Merle patterns are great.
And I have yet to hear it complain.
That said, it is only a good starting point.
Haha. Cute. 
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DaveClark
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/11 02:56:07
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Greetings all, Thanks to the earlier posts (ahem) in this thread, I went ahead and downloaded Jammer for comparison purposes to BIAB. I was amused to see quite a number of similarities in the nomenclature as if one program was based on the other plus or minus something. I would give BIAB a big thumb's up for styles and for style design. I would give Jammer a big thumb's up for allowing better MIDI control in many ways. While using Jammer early on I was wishing that I had it. However, now that I've used the demo for awhile, I'm not so sure that I would use it after all. My impression is becoming solidified around the conception that BIAB plus some MIDI editor is probably more useful for me than Jammer plus the same MIDI editor. This is because I typically work with songs first in BIAB, then export to MIDI, then do massive edits in a MIDI editor. While it would be very nice to have even a little better MIDI in BIAB, it would be even nicer if Jammer had a LOT more musical expertise built into it. Although the control in Jammer is fantastic compared to that of BIAB in terms of MIDI editing, there really isn't much that I can think of that cannot be accomplished with BIAB + MIDI editor if you understand a little bit about how these styles are produced. One BIG omission that Jammer has is that it appears to have no way of constructing styles from scratch, so it's more like a MIDI loop tool. This combined with the lack of extensive musical knowledge (for example, the extensive heuristics options in BIAB) makes Jammer seem significantly more primitive, musically speaking, while at the same time a much better MIDI tool. If you wanted to go from start to finish without MIDI (uh, I meant "without MIDI editing"), then BIAB would be fine. If you wanted to go from start to finish inside of one tool AND do MIDI editing over details, then Jammer would be better. But if you don't mind exporting/importing and editing in a MIDI editor, then I would go with BIAB again --- based on my very limited exposure to Jammer Pro. Regards to all, Dave Clark
post edited by DaveClark - 2007/06/11 03:01:31
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Cromberger
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/12 01:16:57
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ORIGINAL: DaveClark
Greetings all,
Thanks to the earlier posts (ahem) in this thread, I went ahead and downloaded Jammer for comparison purposes to BIAB. I was amused to see quite a number of similarities in the nomenclature as if one program was based on the other plus or minus something.
I would give BIAB a big thumb's up for styles and for style design. I would give Jammer a big thumb's up for allowing better MIDI control in many ways. While using Jammer early on I was wishing that I had it. However, now that I've used the demo for awhile, I'm not so sure that I would use it after all. My impression is becoming solidified around the conception that BIAB plus some MIDI editor is probably more useful for me than Jammer plus the same MIDI editor. This is because I typically work with songs first in BIAB, then export to MIDI, then do massive edits in a MIDI editor. While it would be very nice to have even a little better MIDI in BIAB, it would be even nicer if Jammer had a LOT more musical expertise built into it. Although the control in Jammer is fantastic compared to that of BIAB in terms of MIDI editing, there really isn't much that I can think of that cannot be accomplished with BIAB + MIDI editor if you understand a little bit about how these styles are produced. One BIG omission that Jammer has is that it appears to have no way of constructing styles from scratch, so it's more like a MIDI loop tool. This combined with the lack of extensive musical knowledge (for example, the extensive heuristics options in BIAB) makes Jammer seem significantly more primitive, musically speaking, while at the same time a much better MIDI tool.
If you wanted to go from start to finish without MIDI (uh, I meant "without MIDI editing"), then BIAB would be fine. If you wanted to go from start to finish inside of one tool AND do MIDI editing over details, then Jammer would be better. But if you don't mind exporting/importing and editing in a MIDI editor, then I would go with BIAB again --- based on my very limited exposure to Jammer Pro.
Regards to all,
Dave Clark
Hi, Dave, Good, thoughtful post. Having never used BIAB, I'm very interested to see your comparison to Jammer Pro. I'm still debating whether to upgrade Jammer or get BIAB, though I still may just solve the issue with the shotgun approach and get *both*. I just spent some disposable income on some other music toys, though, and it might be hard for me to justify to my lovely wife buying both programs........ ;>) I suppose the bottom line is, how do each of us, individually, use the tools we have. I really use Jammer as a means of getting some (much needed) inspiration for bass, drum and keyboard parts. I typically feed Jammer an already composed song, in terms of it's chord progression and form, and simply use it to generate some cool ideas for drum parts (which I typically edit afterwards in Sonar) and bass parts (which I typically edit in Sonar, then let my bass player hear as a *concept* on which to base his own ideas). I rarely even use the extensive MIDI capabilities in Jammer because I'm not trying to "compose in the box" with it, I'm letting it be my " personal rhythm section", as it were. Indeed, what Jammer generates is rarely what I'd wind up using verbatim, but it really does come up with some very cool stuff as a good starting point for further embellishment. For this purpose, it's a very adaquate program for my uses. Still, I'm very interested to see what BIAB has to offer me, too. I'm curious: You mention "a MIDI editor" in a couple of your posts. Which program do you use? I'm not a MIDI guru by any stretch of the imagination but I do find that Sonar 5.2 can be a bit frustrating when it comes to MIDI editing. I wind up using the Notation View for everything other than drum tracks because I find it easier to use actual music notation to enter/edit MIDI data than the Piano Roll View. And, the Notation View in Sonar is not it's strongest point, in my opinion...... Thanks for your input on the two programs. Bill
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DaveClark
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/12 15:32:54
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Hi Bill,
Thanks for your response.
BIAB can also be used as accompaniment. There are many ways to do this, maybe even too many! BIAB can detect chord structure in both audio and MIDI files (audio to a lesser extent, as one might expect), can import MIDI into the "Melody" track (probably also "Solo," but I'm in Linux at the moment so cannot verify easily). You can also manually enter or edit chord progressions, choose alternate chord progressions from a list of recommended alternatives, and so on. I would not think that you would be disappointed in the musical abilities of BIAB to provide accompaniment, but you may be disappointed in the clunkiness of the MIDI interface and in MIDI import. BIAB doesn't have such a thing as the ability to forcibly use (say) certain bass measures in a certain place *other* than through the Styles capability as far as I recall as I write this. You cannot simply place it in where you want and "freeze" it, or not easily that is. I wish there was more of a MIDI editor type capability in BIAB, but this would potentially seriously compromise its ability to provide musically wise assistance.
The most interesting thing you can do is to import patterns from MIDI files into patterns in the Style editor. You can also simply record brand new patterns there, but what BIAB does with the imported patterns is pretty interesting. It chops up the MIDI sequences into 8-bar (maybe also 4-bar etc.) measures and attaches weights to the occurences which you can then modify. You can then impose a new chord structure upon the style and generate a new "song." This new song will remind you of what you imported, but believe me, it will most likely sound radically different. This is where the heuristics become important. You may need to modify what type of patterns can be played, where they can be played, how to play them, and so on. This is BIAB's forte --- which I don't think is matched by anyone. The editor for Styles is Notation, so you would probably feel at home there, even if the keystrokes and mouse stuff is odd at first.
-------------------------
As far as MIDI editors go, I've tried probably between one and two dozen of them, including all the ones in Linux that were available up until late 2005. IMHO most MIDI editors suck bigtime, to be quite frank. The best path for what I do with BIAB is BIAB -> simple MIDI editor like MIDI Orchestrator Plus (now Record Producer MIDI) -> second MIDI editor like SONAR for recording. I've never found a better pure MIDI editor than the Voyetra series for what I do. I *like* the fact that they don't include audio. Many people here cannot use this; I have external synths with enough sounds to get very close to what I eventually use, so I can use the Voyetra editors alongside whatever audio program simultaneously, including SONAR or WAV editors. I would prefer MIDI and Audio to be separated with interprocess communication being limited to what I set up, if that makes sense to you (i.e. common Transport, port connectivity to VSTi's if required, etc.). I would also like to see GUI's separated from the underlying programs, but that's not Windows style of programming, unfortunately.
Best regards,
Dave Clark
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Skyline_UK
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/30 16:54:52
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For anyone interested, Jammer have just published a new Jazz/Blues style set. I bought them and they're pretty good. Such a pity they don't issue new styles more frequently. Link here.
My stuff Intel Sandy Bridge i7 2600 @ 3.4GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, 16GB RAM.OS & Programs drive: 240GB SSD
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Windows 10 Home 64 bit
Cakewalk by BandLab 64 bit, Studio One 3, Band In A Box 2016, Ozone 8+ too many other pluginsBandLab page
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riojazz
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/30 19:35:56
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Thanks for the notice of the new Jammer styles, John.
One thing that bugs me about the Jammer/SoundTrek site is that it lists dates for updates with NO YEAR! If you don't recall exactly what version you have, you have to go deeper into the update to see whether April 17 means 2006 (it does) or 2007. That's really tacky.
I own and use Band-in-a-Box extensively as the first step in composing. I have Jammer but never use it because there are so few styles.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab; Adobe Audition; Band-in-A-Box audiophile; Izotope Ozone; Encore; Melodyne; Win 10 Pro, 64-bit. Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd; Roland Integra-7; TCE Finalizer; Presonus Central Station, Behringer X-Touch. Home built i7 with 16 GB RAM, SSDs.
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SteveJL
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/30 23:24:26
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ORIGINAL: riojazz
One thing that bugs me about the Jammer/SoundTrek site is that it lists dates for updates with NO YEAR! If you don't recall exactly what version you have, you have to go deeper into the update to see whether April 17 means 2006 (it does) or 2007. That's really tacky.
Actually, they do. This product was added to our catalog on Friday 29 June, 2007. Right near the Add To Cart button on each Style Pak page, though not too easy to see.
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mudgel
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RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2007/06/30 23:43:43
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I have all the styles packs for Jammer as well as all the musicians packs and find that there are so many to choose from. I don't see where people say that there are so few styles.
I can edit any style or add different musicians to any set of of my choosing. Complete flexibility to me.
I can then have JAMMER compose for me and it will creat new riffs & patterns for percussion or musical instrument parts with very advanced parameters which are fully editable so that composing will take place on a loosley contrained set of parameters or very fixed ones. These can then be exported/saved as midi files and used as loops.
I actually use JAMMER to trigger SD2 within SONAR through A virtual MIDI cable. Awesome is all I can say.
I haven't used BIAB so can't comment on it.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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BENT
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2014/11/22 18:58:08
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mudgel
It involves using MIDI YOKE to create a virtual MIDI cable between JAMMER and SONAR. This allows me to write the MIDI parts in JAMMER but play the Softsynths in SONAR just as if I used an external synth to trigger SONAR's Softsynths but as it is all in software you need a virtual MIDI cable to make the connection. Each track in JAMMER can be set to send MIDI out on any of its 16 channels via MIDI YOKE as a virtual MIDI device. I just setup SONAR with 16 MIDI tracks all set to recieve on one of the 16 channels with MIDI YOKE as its input. Then I can assign softsynths and audio tracks just Like I would with any soft synth but in this case JAMMER is the trigger via its MIDI YOKE out. Of course you have to set SONAR to recieve clock signals external and set it to play. Then go to Jammer and press play and it triggers SONAR to start playing.
Hi Michael, Recently returned to Jammer after a long stint away. Jammer4 worked fine with Rewire in S6 but Jammer6 is a different beast, so I set up a template along the lines in your post but using “LoopBe1” as my virtual MIDI cable instead of MIDI YOKE. I'm having lots of stability problems with my synths. Are you still using Jammer6 with X3e x64 or have you installed X3e x32 for stability. Sorry to dig up such an old post but would appreciate your input... Thanks
I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!)  Cakewalk by BandLab, Splat and other DAW's PC = Win 10 64 Bit, i7 3770, 16Gb RAM, 256GB Samsung 2.5’ 840 PRO SATA6GB/s SSD 1, and 2 x 2Tb Internal, Monitors = 2 24” Samsung SA450 and 1 20” Dele Edirol = Octa-Capture-UA1010, Quad-Capture-UA55, PCR-500, Berringer 2 x FBC 1010 Alesis Control Pad KRK monitors
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BENT
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2014/11/23 20:14:50
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I'm assuming people are interested in this because in the 24hrs since my last post this thread has had 90 views and with more detective work I've discovered a few things that I thought I'd pass info on.
The stability problems I was having with my synths was because Jammer6 sending controllers and resetting synths PRG's. Interestingly this was only happening on certain syths (which is what confused me) I fixed this problem by unticking Record Controllers under /Preferences/MIDI/Playback and Recording/ in Sonar
The other problem I had was when I moved to Jammer6, sonar would lose focus and stop, setting MIDI sync in sonar did not change this, but I found that if I setup a one bar loop in sonar and started play, sonar would keep focus and when I moved back to Jammer6 I could still hear sonar.
So the good news is I can now happily work away in jammer6 with my MIDI routed into sonar and create the backing tracks I've been employed to make for my client without listening to the boring old Roland GS sounds in my Roland SC55 Sound Canvas MIDI linked to Jammer6 and then exporting a midi file into sonar then start using soft synths.
If anyone can add to this or suggest better ways to to achieve the above then I'm all ears
hth someone
I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!) Cakewalk by BandLab, Splat and other DAW's PC = Win 10 64 Bit, i7 3770, 16Gb RAM, 256GB Samsung 2.5’ 840 PRO SATA6GB/s SSD 1, and 2 x 2Tb Internal, Monitors = 2 24” Samsung SA450 and 1 20” Dele Edirol = Octa-Capture-UA1010, Quad-Capture-UA55, PCR-500, Berringer 2 x FBC 1010 Alesis Control Pad KRK monitors
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BENT
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2014/11/23 21:07:36
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Found out some more...
Jammer6 "MFX Shell". Will only load in X3 32 bit
it wont run through bitbridge or jBridge, It will only run in 32 bit so I'll load X3 32bit with fingers crossed
I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!) Cakewalk by BandLab, Splat and other DAW's PC = Win 10 64 Bit, i7 3770, 16Gb RAM, 256GB Samsung 2.5’ 840 PRO SATA6GB/s SSD 1, and 2 x 2Tb Internal, Monitors = 2 24” Samsung SA450 and 1 20” Dele Edirol = Octa-Capture-UA1010, Quad-Capture-UA55, PCR-500, Berringer 2 x FBC 1010 Alesis Control Pad KRK monitors
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BENT
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2014/11/24 20:32:31
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Using a Quad capture and an actual MIDI lead
Plug MIDI lead from the MIDI Out looped back into MIDI In.
set Jammer6 MIDI Out to Quad
Set X3e Synth MIDI Track input to Quad
Works like a charm and stable as
Forget routing to my Roland SC55 Sound Canvas
Forget Loading X3e 32bit
How frigen simple is that! LESS! IS MORE!
I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!) Cakewalk by BandLab, Splat and other DAW's PC = Win 10 64 Bit, i7 3770, 16Gb RAM, 256GB Samsung 2.5’ 840 PRO SATA6GB/s SSD 1, and 2 x 2Tb Internal, Monitors = 2 24” Samsung SA450 and 1 20” Dele Edirol = Octa-Capture-UA1010, Quad-Capture-UA55, PCR-500, Berringer 2 x FBC 1010 Alesis Control Pad KRK monitors
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RonCaird
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2014/11/25 00:39:23
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I use Jammer (Ver 6) for a number of purposes. I originally got an earlier version (4 I believe) from drums, bass, keyboards to practice guitar with. The variety of styles and genres was useful for expanding my skills. Then I started to use it for building bass and drum tracks for my own compositions. Initially, back in my days using Home Studio, I would play Jammer through an external synth and record the tracks as audio in Home Studio. As I moved up to Sonar I started importing MIDI files to trigger EZ Drummer kits and then Addictive Drums. I still find that there are some styles where the Jammer grooves work better than the styles available in either EZD or AD, particularly swing, latin and reggae grooves. I will also use Jammer to create bass lines when I need something more complex than my rudimentary bass playing can deliver. I have been using Jammer for years and I am comfortable with the interface so I do like it and I have certainly gotten great value for a relatively modest investment.
Also, I got an e-mail from the Jammer folks a few days ago that indicated they were climbing out of the recession and were starting new development. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect this is a second business for some musician/programmers whose efforts were being spent keeping themselves fed, housed and healthy over the past few years. I'm glad to see it looks as if they're back at it.
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Snehankur
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2017/12/08 08:33:14
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mudgel
I've emailed Soundtracks and asked about a VST version of JAMMER and they've hinted at it for the future some time but no firm commitment.
Do you still have contact with Soundtrek? Any place I can buy Jammer 6 Pro from? Regards Snehankur
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stratman70
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2017/12/08 16:16:13
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I have owned BIAB & Jammer for years. I played in many duo's (guitar & keyboards) and also by myself (guitar & backing tracks). I used these programs to make backing tracks of covers I did.
Much easier than the hours and hours of sequencing I use to do.
I did tend to use BIAB much more. The newer versions let you customize the hell out of the interface and save it.
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Cactus Music
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Re: RE: Band-In-A-Box v Jammer with Sonar 6
2017/12/08 22:45:12
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Wow 10 year old thread,
I wonder how much these products have progressed?
I think I have BIAB somewhere. Ya, it didn't seem to have any of the styles of music I play and the drum rolls drove me nuts. Sounded like a mall organ. But still fun to play along with.
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