Monkey23
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Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
I'm looking in to buying either the EMU 1616 cardbus or the 1616m cardbus. The difference between them is that the 1616m has "mastergrade" A/D converters like the pro tools systems. I don't have a very good microphone. I don't have a very good recording environment, and I do mostly score music using MIDI with some live audio recorded. Even though the difference in price between the two is like $120, would I just be bettter off putting my money elsewhere and getting the "regular" soundcard?
The obvious answer would be "yes, of course" but I do plan on recording some audio for scoring, and for making an album of my songs on a amateur/semi-pro level and I don't want to sell my self short over $120. What do you think?
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mgh
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 01:11:30
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can you afford it? if yes, then do. if, not, no. we could all do with better a/d converters but my hd3 is lost in the post somewhere...buy the cheaper card and abetter mic, will sound beter overall! 
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tjw194
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 01:15:33
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there aren't too many replies to it, but there is a really similar post on the emu forum if you haven't checked it out yet: http://www.productionforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=8141 other than that, i can't help you out much. i have the 1616m but haven't heard the 1616. if you decide you want the better converters down the road and you have to replace your interface, then you've wasted more money than the 120 bucks for the m version. if there's any way you could hear both versions before you buy, that would be the way to go.
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Monkey23
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 10:38:04
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ORIGINAL: mgh
can you afford it? if yes, then do. ...buy the cheaper card and a better mic, will sound beter overall!
I can't really afford any of it! As far as the cheaper card and the better mic, that's what I was thinking but...
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Monkey23
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 10:39:32
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ORIGINAL: tjw194
If you decide you want the better converters down the road and you have to replace your interface, then you've wasted more money than the 120 bucks for the m version.
...that's what I was afraid of!! Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 11:48:45
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personally, i think that it depends on the level you are at. if you consider yourself a hobbyist, given the relative quality of sound between any prosumer audio cards (based on price), converters are probably the last thing you want to fret over. if you plan to go semi-pro or make money by running a studio with the card, then the $120 is probably a decent investment provided you have some decent mics and preamps to go along with the nice converter. even then, more pristine converters are usually toward the end of the gear upgrade chain. in my opinion, the order of importance for quality begins at the start of the sound chain - the player and the instrument, then the mics, then the soundcard, then the audio sequencer, then the output method. the only exception is cables - always buy decent cables, like mogami (and others that people here recommend that i've forgotten, besides monster  ). the best converters will capture more clearly poor playing, bad instruments, cheap mics and cheap cables.
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Monkey23
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 13:57:34
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
personally, i think that it depends on the level you are at. if you consider yourself a hobbyist, given the relative quality of sound between any prosumer audio cards (based on price), converters are probably the last thing you want to fret over.
if you plan to go semi-pro or make money by running a studio with the card, then the $120 is probably a decent investment provided you have some decent mics and preamps to go along with the nice converter. even then, more pristine converters are usually toward the end of the gear upgrade chain.
in my opinion, the order of importance for quality begins at the start of the sound chain - the player and the instrument, then the mics, then the soundcard, then the audio sequencer, then the output method. the only exception is cables - always buy decent cables, like mogami (and others that people here recommend that i've forgotten, besides monster ). the best converters will capture more clearly poor playing, bad instruments, cheap mics and cheap cables.
Thanks, that was a very clear and objective answer. At this point I'm a hobbyist but I'm about to enter the semi-pro world with the scoring of my first feature length film of which I'm getting paid for. I know that converters may not be the be all end all in the long run but I always tend to buy just under what I should have in order to save a few bucks and I don't want to make that mistake here. Like you said, I don't have the best microphones, probably won't be gettting the best microphones anytime soon, and I definately do not have the best recording environment at this point. So I just think that money (even $120) might be better spent elsewhere since the other links in my chain are not the best quality. I just think that better converters would be a little lost in the mix (no pun intended). I'm glad to hear others opinions though.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 14:42:15
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since you said you are scoring your first feature length film, let me ask - are you recording any part of it yourself, or are you just mixing stuff in the DAW? because if you aren't recording anything i would actually go for the better converters in that case so you'll have a (slightly) better output quality, if you will be hitting an analog chain at some point. for example, you mix down the score in the DAW and then export it over analog cable to some other device for final mixdown. if everything will take place internally though, the converters won't make a difference as they have nothing to convert, at least that's how i understand it.
does that make sense?
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bitflipper
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 15:36:05
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mgh is on the right track. Yes, you would see some benefit from a higher-quality converter. But is it really the weakest link in your setup?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Monkey23
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/24 23:36:03
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
since you said you are scoring your first feature length film, let me ask - are you recording any part of it yourself, or are you just mixing stuff in the DAW? because if you aren't recording anything i would actually go for the better converters in that case so you'll have a (slightly) better output quality, if you will be hitting an analog chain at some point. for example, you mix down the score in the DAW and then export it over analog cable to some other device for final mixdown. if everything will take place internally though, the converters won't make a difference as they have nothing to convert, at least that's how i understand it.
does that make sense?
Yes it makes sense. I won't be doing any D/A and at this point, only some A/D. Now, if we were talking a $500 difference there is no question I would live without the better converters. The fact that it is only around $130 difference makes me question it though. Having said that, I am far from a rich man and $130 is still a $130. At this point I have poor microphones and even if I upgraded I doubt they would be over $500 microphones. I'm also just recording in a home, not a pro or semi-pro studio. So I guess after all this, what I'm asking is if I would really benefit from having slightly better converters given all the other weak links in my chain.
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Roflcopter
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 04:04:56
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If you for instance don't use a pre-amp for your microphone, even a 130 bucks would make a whopping difference there.
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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Monkey23
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 07:36:23
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ORIGINAL: Roflcopter
If you for instance don't use a pre-amp for your microphone, even a 130 bucks would make a whopping difference there.
What could you suggest in that department fore $130 (or a little more)?
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Roflcopter
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 07:50:50
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This one gets good reviews for that price-range, subtlearts (forum user) recommended it a while back, and he knows his gear. (should leave you with some change, even at the RRP - for good cables) http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/AudioBuddy-main.html
post edited by Roflcopter - 2007/06/25 07:55:09
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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tjw194
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 09:26:17
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keep in mind that the 1616 and 1616m have pre-amps in the break-out box already:
"Two E-MU XTCâ„¢ studio-grade, ultra-low noise preamps (-127dBu EIN) with analog soft limiter - Mic/Line and true Hi-Z inputs via Neutrik connectors, 48V phantom power and 60dB of gain"
granted they aren't top of the line but if your mics aren't that great that shouldn't matter. you said that you wouldn't spend more than 500 bucks on microphones but you could get some very decent mics for that price (less actually). what kind of sound sources are you going to need to capture?
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Roflcopter
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 09:38:12
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keep in mind that the 1616 and 1616m have pre-amps in the break-out box already Ah, I'm not familiar with that line - most soundcards don't have such luxury. In any case, the general idea was to look for weak links, and where to spend that kind of money best. Could turn out he might want a better microphone. (Behringer B-1 is not half bad in that price range). 
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 12:06:56
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The difference is price isn't that great. In fact, it's worth the $120 extra to not ever have to worry about it. For you, the D/A quality is most important. (as you're going mostly soft-synth/MIDI)
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mlockett
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 12:13:52
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
in my opinion, the order of importance for quality begins at the start of the sound chain - the player and the instrument, then the mics, then the soundcard, then the audio sequencer, then the output method.
+1 Also, converters tend to be similar to computer technologies (but to a lesser extent). They continue to improve designs and are able to make better converters cheaper. While that's true of a lot of things, I doubt the price/performance ratio of mics (or preamps) will change as dramatically. What this means is... don't invest too much in converters that you might use in a few years (because you're money will probably get you a lot better card in a few years).
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Roflcopter
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RE: Would I benefit from better A/D converters?
2007/06/25 13:43:30
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In fact, it's worth the $120 extra to not ever have to worry about it. I agree, and the advice is sound, but that's a bit of an unwelcome message if you're on a budget.
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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