Helpful ReplyGuitar Distortion

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RIZZY0
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2007/09/20 22:49:11 (permalink)

Guitar Distortion

I've recently been working with some younger bands and I've been having the guitarist obviously get their distortion sounds the way they want before recording, making sure they are happy with the amount of distortion before we record. After recording we listen to the playback for performance and tonality with no issues. Once I finish the mixing, inevitably I hear from the guitarist that there is too much distortion on the guitar. I'm not adding any additional distortion I use a little compression and a little eq to the track. Hence what the guitarist was after was more of an overdrive as opposed to a full distortion. So two questions, is there some trick possibly to thin out the amount of distortion without rerecording the track and how do you guys work with younger musicians to get them to understand the differences in amounts of distortion and overdrive?
#1
yep
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/20 22:54:12 (permalink)
Yes to everything. Recorded dirt guitar sounds almost always use less distortion than the live sound. About half the gain they usually play with is a good starting point. The reasons are myriad and complex but the results are clear.

AC/DC records their guitars through a Marshall amp with all the knobs turned up about halfway-- that's it, no distortion pedal, nothing else. It's amazing how a little gain goes a long way.

Cheers.
#2
DaveClark
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/21 00:36:23 (permalink)
Hi all,

ORIGINAL: yep

The reasons are myriad and complex...


That's probably true, but I know that the biggest reason I myself hear more distortion with recordings is that when I play (and "play" is an gross exaggeration), I hear an appreciable acoustic component that is not recorded, although that could be done. In other words, I hear the strings being plucked quite clearly as well as their vibrations as a part of what I hear for the sound because I'm so close to the strings.

When I play the recording back, those acoustic plucking sounds are gone, hence I conclude that there is more distortion --- but it's not so much that as the acoustic portion has been subtracted. I'm not really recording what I'm hearing.

These younger folks are probably not used to this, so some explanation, demonstration, and iteration may be necessary.

Regards,
Dave Clark

#3
APC3
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/21 01:08:01 (permalink)
As yep stated, less is more, it took me quite a while to get used to this, but it iis what it is.
#4
wishus
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/21 14:51:41 (permalink)
Everyone else covered the obvious, but I have an idea:

Maybe the extra compression you added to the guitar track increased the guitar's sustain in a way that was perceived by the guitarist as more gain.

It's worth a shot - reduce or remove the compression on the distortion tracks and see if the guitar player is happy. If that doesn't do it, then it's time to re-track with less gain. Another possibility would be to overdub a cleaner guitar sound and mix it with the distortion sound to bring back a little articulation.

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#5
fep
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/21 18:17:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby AT 2017/06/15 17:59:41
It's too late for this project but on future projects you can split the guitar signal with a direct box and record two tracks, one direct and one from the amp set the way the guitarist 'likes' it.

Then if he doesn't like it later, reamp the direct track (go backwards thru a passive direct box before the amp) and reset the gain on the guitar amp and re-record it to yet another track. This is the way I always do it now.
#6
spindlebox
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/24 09:49:09 (permalink)
One trick I use and learned in "professional studios" was to record 2 tracks simultaneously; one effected and one clean. What you're describing is a loss of ATTACK. Effects can certainly muddy that up. If you have 2 tracks, you can make one sound the way you want, and bring the clean one up in the mix to emphasize the actual notes. You'll be surprised at how great it sounds.

If recording 2 tracks simultaneously isn't an option, it would be best to record the track clean to begin with (unless that'll confuse the young pup). Copy the track into 2, and then put your effects on one track.

That's pretty much the way that I record all of my string instruments, if I'm planning on using effects like overdrive, distortion. It also limits my need for much chorus as I'm creating a natural chorus just by doing that. It just gives you more flexibility in the end.

Good luck!
Scott


 

 
#7
APC3
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/24 11:05:35 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: spindlebox

One trick I use and learned in "professional studios" was to record 2 tracks simultaneously; one effected and one clean.
Good luck!
Scott


In fact it's really a great habit to get into doing this with everything you record if possible. And as spindlebox stated it can add alot to a distorted track.
#8
Rbh
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/26 22:42:23 (permalink)
You can't really subtract distortion from the tracks....but you could filter some of the ugly stuff out. Try using span or some other frequency or spectrum graph to eyeball where the grossest frequencies are on the guitar track. Then try to set up a few sharply notched narrow band frequency cuts and work the frequencies up and down in context of the mix until you find if something sounds better. You may find an area where loosing a narrow band of guitar signal is filled in with some other instrument and it might give the effect of lesser distortion. It's definately worth experimenting with trying to tap a clean guitar signal before they dirty it up and throw it on another track for a back-up.
#9
Rbh
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/28 22:17:23 (permalink)
I think the best thing of all is that AFTER they here it in a mix they see on their own that they need to change the way they sound when recording.... that means they're learning how to hear..which is good.. so sell them on re recording it again.
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mixsit
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/29 21:16:06 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: yep

Yes to everything. Recorded dirt guitar sounds almost always use less distortion than the live sound. About half the gain they usually play with is a good starting point. The reasons are myriad and complex but the results are clear.

You might be safe to say less gain works live as well. No one in the audience hears the dynamics and tone of the amp from three feet away either. There's nothing more sobering than hearing your 'Awesome Monster Tone' turn to buzzy mush than a 30' guitar cord...
post edited by mixsit - 2007/09/29 21:31:19

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#11
yep
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/29 22:06:26 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: mixsit
...You might be safe to say less gain works live as well. No one in the audience hears the dynamics and tone of the amp from three feet away either...

Live sound is a whole different world, especially for heavy rock.

For one thing, the human ear hears very differently at rock-concert volume than it does at typical home listening volume. A guitar that sounds flat, weak, and fizzy at 83dB may sound massive and roaring at 110dB, in part due to the Fletcher-Munson curve and in part due to to the physicality of the powerful sound waves literally rocking your body.

For another, rock concerts typically have a *very* high ambient noise floor. If you have 90dB SPL ambient noise (shout to be heard levels) and you dial up a guitar sound that is swinging 18dB VU on chugging palm-mutes, then unless you are running with RMS levels into the pain threshold, all the detail and sustain from the guitar is going to get lost in the crowd noise.

I don't disagree that many heavy rock guitar players are overly gain-happy both live and in the studio. I think a lot of it comes from a tendency to play solo through headphones or nearfield speaker playback, where you get an exaggerated sense of detail and clarity. Push the listening speakers back a few feet, add in some bass, drums and splashy hi-hats, and turn the guitar level down enough for the vocal to squeeze through, and all of a sudden that massive guitar sounds like weak midrange fizz.

But even still, there is very often a significant difference between what works in the studio vs what works live. The players will have built a sound and an approach focused towards live performance (which is what they do, after all). It is the job of the engineer to find the most flattering way to capture and present the experience of the musicians' performance in a way that will translate well in real-world playback.

Cheers.
#12
wickerman
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/09/30 21:20:29 (permalink)
I wish I could subscribe to your posts yep. I keep learning from you. Thanks for posting such great explanations of what the deal is.
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El Bosso
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/10/08 12:40:55 (permalink)
Hi there.

I do alot of Heavy- Deathmetal recording (some with guitars tuned down to 6 halftones). I usually plug the git into a distortion pedal and then into the amp.
Only turn up the volume knob on the pedal and almost no distortion. The same with the amp. The pedal only boosts the input volume and the amp does the rest.
I go out on a marshall 300W box and got upto 5 different mics set up. Watch the phase of the mics and mix together. U have to record at least 4 tracks rythm guitar and pan em left and right.
Hardly distorted but gets fatter the more traks u record.
Only minus is that the guitarplayer got to play the rythm stuff 4 times and has to play it quite exact. Then u will get a fat distorted guitar.

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#14
Mako
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/10/14 18:19:41 (permalink)
Great topic... I notice my live distortion sound is not great recorded, sounds too buzzy. Plenty of attack so I don't think that is the problem. I was going to try rolling off some highs, but something tells me this won't help. I will try recording with clean chan at the same time.

We are talking rhythm guitar, same idea for leads?
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yep
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/10/14 18:45:11 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Mako
...We are talking rhythm guitar, same idea for leads?

Leads, as in dedicated guitar solos, are kind of a different animal, and you can get away with a lot more.

For one thing, the guitar solo typically does not have to "make room" for anything else. It takes over the role of the vocal, which typically means that all of the headroom and upper-midrange space that would otherwise be devoted to vocal clarity is now available for the guitar, so a lot of the masking effects that affect rythm guitars become a non-issue.

Leads tend to require a little less "thinking." A lead guitar that sounds good solo is likely to be effective in the mix.

Cheers.
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Mako
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RE: Guitar Distortion 2007/10/14 21:00:28 (permalink)
I agree with the "room in the mix" concept, it still seems I have to back off the distortion for lead
#17
LWD19821483
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Re: RE: Guitar Distortion 2017/06/15 11:25:42 (permalink)
I know of different types of distortion, sonar has a nice built in amp distortion plug in with several of them.  I use distortion practices on synth sounds more than on guitars with my instrumentals.  I'd say have your apprentices play with the knobs an exact the sound you all are talking about to achieve.  
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batsbrew
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Re: RE: Guitar Distortion 2017/06/16 14:06:53 (permalink)
a classic example of where less distortion makes for bigger sound,
even when it isnt'.
 
Heart's "Barracuda"
 
if you listen closely, 
you'll hear that one guitar is barely crunchy,
and the other sounds like a les paul full up thru a twin.
big sound, very little sustain,
and yet this thing rocks harder than most metal.
 
just food for thought.

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jamesg1213
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Re: RE: Guitar Distortion 2017/06/16 16:50:47 (permalink)
Wow, 10 year old thread, back from the dead...

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#20
batsbrew
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Re: RE: Guitar Distortion 2017/06/16 17:32:45 (permalink)


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