philo156
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Recording Guitar
Hello folks. I could use some of the expertise on this forum.
I am a guitarist and have been doing DAW recording for about three years now. Because I enjoy writing different kinds of stuff (Jazz/Funk/World/Orchestral) I have been slowly (limited funds) building up a sound library of just about everything else but things related to the guitar.
The problem now is that I feel that the sound of my guitar tracks aren't on par with the sounds that I am surrounding it with - so I need to get a better hardware setup. Right now I have the following:
I use a Fender Twin Reverb (which is great) mic'd with a Rode NTA-1 into a Mobile Pre (which I bought when I first got Sonar - not really knowing what I needed for the guitar). I also use the Revalver in Sonar to add some edge when needed and and it actually works pretty well for that.
So can I ask some of you what you would change first and with what? I guess the obvious thing is the Mobile Pre and wondered what you guys might recommend and why. But any comments about this configuration would be greatly appreciated.
All opinions welcome! Thanks.
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Rev. Jem
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 00:43:55
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Can't fault the Mobile Pre unless we're getting really nit-picky about converters which I don't think is your problem.
Room treated OK ?
How much have you experimented with mic placement (near, far, mid-way, direct, angled) ?
Have you tried other mics ? Many people favour dynamics over large diaphragm condensers such as the NT-1A due to their earlier top roll-off.
How about using an SM57 either with the Rode or another dynamic ?
Mike Senior wrote a fab article in SOS a few months ago on recording electric guitars that's well worth reading.
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philo156
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 02:45:55
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ORIGINAL: Rev. Jem
Can't fault the Mobile Pre unless we're getting really nit-picky about converters which I don't think is your problem.
Room treated OK ?
How much have you experimented with mic placement (near, far, mid-way, direct, angled) ?
Have you tried other mics ? Many people favour dynamics over large diaphragm condensers such as the NT-1A due to their earlier top roll-off.
How about using an SM57 either with the Rode or another dynamic ?
Mike Senior wrote a fab article in SOS a few months ago on recording electric guitars that's well worth reading.
So you think a second mic would be better than another sound card and pre-amp as a first step? Hmmmm. No doubt another mic would help. I'll have to look for that article. Thanks.
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pgw
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 03:03:33
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ORIGINAL: philo156
The problem now is that I feel that the sound of my guitar tracks aren't on par with the sounds that I am surrounding it with - so I need to get a better hardware setup.
I think you should try to get a defined idea of what´s missing in your sound today compared to what you want to hear. Usually, I try to have an idea of what the result should sound like before recording. While i do agree with the good Rev. that you should experiment with what you already have first, there´s nothing wrong with trying out new equipment either - I went from a M-Audio Delta66 with the Omni I/O-pre to a RME FF400 - to my ears it gave instant gratification, cleaner, less compressed, softer sound with better high-end - I know everone doesn´t agree though, your own ears are the best judges if it´s worth the investment or not. Other than that : as the Rev. has already written - experiment with different mic´s ( the classic´s are classic for a reason - SM57 / U87 / etc. those squary Sennheisers ( E609 ?) ), damping the room & mic-placement. Keep your cables as short as possible - besides less signal-loss they also don´get tangled in each other ( i.e. more playing & less messing ). Just my 0.02$ Per
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jimack
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 07:21:34
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philo,
Try thowing Amplitube on to one of your recorded tracks. It'll blow your mind.
I, personally, don't do live stuff anymore. When I got Amplitube 2, I stopped buying hardware for my guitars. It really is amazing.
Of course, if you do live, it's probably not the answer.
-- Jim _____________________ Sonar 7 PE, P5 v2.5, 3.4Ghz P4, 2GB RAM, MAudio 2496PCI, Event TR6, PodXT, Yamaha S90, Hammond XK-C3, MAudio Axiom 61, Gibson Les Paul Custom, Gretsch 5296, Fender Strat, Larrivee D03R, Martin D12-28, Martin D16-R, etc
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 07:36:24
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The Fender Twin is not the easiest amp to get a variety of sounds out of. It has one fantastic sound.
Very clean while very very loud. Are you able to play it under circumstances that allow the amp to run how it was designed to run?
It might be most helpful to define the sound your after and follow a path towards the traditonal solution for that sound.
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 07:46:14
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use a Fender Twin Reverb (which is great) mic'd with a Rode NTA-1 into a Mobile Pre (which I bought when I first got Sonar - not really knowing what I needed for the guitar). I also use the Revalver in Sonar to add some edge when needed and and it actually works pretty well for that.
So can I ask some of you what you would change first and with what? I guess the obvious thing is the Mobile Pre and wondered what you guys might recommend and why. But any comments about this configuration would be greatly appreciated. More or better equipment probaly will not help you get a better guitar sound. I know alot of people that use cheap equipment, including myself that get great guitar sounds recorded into sonar or other sequencer programs. Its easy to fall into the trap of thinking, if i get this piece of equipment, it will solve my issue, but its the wrong way of thinking. Use what you have, but take some time and experiment with mic positioning and effects to get what you want. you can do it with what you have. Personally the revalver stinks for guitar or any other instrument. Cj
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 08:10:28
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FWIW,
I think many old time guitar players finally realize *WOW, I have lots of guitars, amps, and pedals... but I finally figured out it's all in your hands.*
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CJaysMusic
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 08:12:11
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
FWIW,
I think many old time guitar players finally realize *WOW, I have lots of guitars, amps, and pedals... but I finally figured out it's all in your hands.*
Oh yea, if you give the same guitar and set up to 2 different guitar players, youll get 2 different sounds..  Cj
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Halexx
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 08:12:50
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One idea to try could be to use a Y Box after your guitar, put one end to tyour hardware guitar rig, and one directly to your mic preamp, so to have the 'hot' and 'direct' signals on the daw.
After, you can use the direct signals to drive virtual amp(Revolver,Amplitube,Guitar Rig etc are made to work primary with the direct signals) and mix it to your Twin sound.
Or you could also use the direct signal to 're-amp'(try a search on it) your guitar, this time concentring on the sound you want to get for your particuliar mix, moving the mic and the knob has the HD play for you.
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tyacko
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 08:38:37
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philo, About a year ago I was going through the same kind of issue myself. I felt that the other components of my music sounded good, but didn't feel like I was capturing the sound of the guitar that I wanted from my amp. At the time I was using a Roland Jazz Chorus and it seemed a bit to bright when played with any distortion. I was using an SM-57 and an AT-4033 to try and capture the amp with a large diaphram and bullet mic (and blend them together), but couldn't find the "magic" I was after. On another forum site a member suggested that I try a ribbon mic that he found and said that it might be the answer. I've included a link to the mic: NOS R2 Blue Ribbon Guitar Mic It costs $139 dollars so it isn't a major investment (for most), so I got it. And I have to say that I do like it much better know. I did have to move it around the speaker until I found the edge as being the sound I wanted. Now, it only requires a bit of minor eq adjustment to get the sound I'm looking for. Possibly something to consider. Best of luck, Tom
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space_cowboy
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 08:57:08
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Two great choices of mics - SM57 and Cascade Fathead. SM57 is cheap and useful for tons of things, but is great on guitar amps. Cascade Fathead aint much more expensive and is a cool ribbon for guitar amps. Experiment with where you put your amp (try the bathroom or a small closet). Experiment with where you put the mic - try the center of the cone, the edge of the cone on axis, the edge of the cone angled like the cone is angled. Two mics - one on the cone and one a bit away to give some ambience (again you need to control the room here). I prefer using a small amp - 30 watts absolutely max. I use a Kendrick Roughneck which is 6 watts of tube tone. You would be surprised at what you can get out of a low wattage tube amp driven hard. Fender Champ is another fun choice. I probably stop with my Black Face Deluxe Reverb as about as much power as I want to use RECORDING. Powerful amps are fun for playing, but I would bet more studios use small amps for recording.
Some people call me Maurice SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc. Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad. 2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1. More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent. Zendrum!!!
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pgw
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 09:32:38
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
FWIW,
I think many old time guitar players finally realize *WOW, I have lots of guitars, amps, and pedals... but I finally figured out it's all in your hands.*
???? Does this apply to lapsteel too ?  ( couldn´t help myself ) Learning the stuff you already have is a great step towards good sounds, IMO you sooner or later reach a point where hardware-upgrades do matter. Using smaller amps is another great idea ( as Space cowboy stated ), if you want that hot sound of overdriven tubes & a speaker pushed to it´s limits there´s no better thing in my book. There are lots of classic amps to find for cheap - Silvertone, Sears, Kalamazoo etc. - i.e. you don´t necessarily need a Fender, Vox or Marshall. I have 11 old Hagström´s & a bunch of other amps around the house - most of them rating less than 20W. How far are we from the usual "real thing" vs. software-debate this time.....
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bermuda
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 10:51:50
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Are you using new strings...your strings maybe dull....get some new strings on, bed them in and then record.
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space_cowboy
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 11:12:45
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Dont do that to me dude. I like having excuses for new pedals and guitars and amps. If I didn't, you would be able to circumnavigate my house without fear of breaking your neck. PS - Fulltone gear really does make you play better and get more chicks. I just got the GT500 boost/distortion pedal. It is now either my #1 or #2 favorite (Tube Screamer is the other #1 or #2). Then again, I have probably purchased 15 or more distortions over the last 30 years. Maybe much more. Now that I think about it, distortion and fuzz are way more personalized than say a chorus or echo. At least to me. I only have 2 echos and 2 choruses. Vibes are pretty personalized too. ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
FWIW,
I think many old time guitar players finally realize *WOW, I have lots of guitars, amps, and pedals... but I finally figured out it's all in your hands.*
Some people call me Maurice SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc. Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad. 2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1. More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent. Zendrum!!!
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MarioD
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 11:23:19
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ORIGINAL: bermuda
Are you using new strings...your strings maybe dull....get some new strings on, bed them in and then record.
Also string gauge is very important. Using the identical guitar and amp settings you will get two distinctly different sounds when using either 8-38 or 13-56 strings. Flat wounds sound different from round wounds. Just my 2 cents - MarioD
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philo156
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 15:32:35
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Well, there are some helpful suggestions there (among the others [sm=rolleyes.gif])
(thanks for the help)
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philo156
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 16:50:32
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
FWIW,
I think many old time guitar players finally realize *WOW, I have lots of guitars, amps, and pedals... but I finally figured out it's all in your hands.*
Old time guitar players? You mean guys like... Pat Metheny, Howlin’ Wolf, T Bone Walker, B.B King, Steve Howe, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Mike Stern, Peter Frampton, Johnny Winter, Bill Frisell, John Lee Hooker, John Abercrombie, Robben Ford, Jim Hall, Jan Ackerman, Dickey Betts, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Joe Satriani, Ritchie Blackmore, Steve Vai, David Gilmore, John McLaughlin, Duane Allman, Larry Coryell, Robert Johnson, Albert King, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Chet Atkins, Leo Kottke, Doc Watson, Buddy Guy, Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt, Joe Walsh, Grant Green, Steve Cropper, Allan Holdsworth, Muddy Waters, Otish Rush, John Scoefield, Robert Fripp, Mark Knopfler, Peter Green, Kenny Burrell, Ronnie Earl, Freddy King, Roy Buchanan, Billy Gibbons, Mike Bloomfield, Larry Carlton, Earl Hooker, Pat Martino, George Harrison, Ry Cooder, Lenny Breau, George Benson, Elmore James, Albert Collins, Steve Morse, Joe Diorio, Bill Connors, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Duke Robillard, Les Paul, Keb Mo, Taj Mahal, Ralph Towner, Stevve Khan, Frank Gambale, Andy Summers, Grant Geisman, Arlen Roth, Elvin Bishop, Phil Upchurch, Barney Kessell, Hound Dog Taylor, Pee Wee Crayton, Lorne Lofsky, Clarence “Gatemouth†Brown… Yeah, at some point, and with the help of a forum like this, these guys usually "realize" where it's really at!
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 17:15:50
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I'm not sure if you're making fun of me.
But that's a great list... and I'd venture to say most of those guys would get their "signature" sound out of just about any guitar rig you provided.
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philo156
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 18:08:05
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
I'm not sure if you're making fun of me.
But that's a great list... and I'd venture to say most of those guys would get their "signature" sound out of just about any guitar rig you provided.
Joking with you - not making fun. Yeah, I guess my question represented me as knowing somewhat less about the process of making music on the guitar than is actually the case. It's not the tone that I am trying to improve. The sound I get through my Twin is one that I love (most of what I do is clean though, with minimal effects - but not all). So I was really just thinking that a better pre amp - something to give the inbound signal itself just a little more omph might be the boost I am looking for. And the point is that I have been using what I have for three years. And not to sound like an "old timer" but I have been actively working as a professional player for quite some time (learned the value of changing my strings a long time ago ). Maybe I am just looking for a change for change's sake - sometimes that in of itself can be inspiring. Oh well, I'll have to figure it out. But I'm quite certain that while Itzhak Perlman would sound great on a violin from the local pawn shop, he would (and does) sound infinitely better on a stradivarius. Each and every factor effects a sound - sometimes subtly and sometimes dramatically altering the signature. And certainly in the world of electric guitar one man's treasure is another's trash. Very subjective to be sure. But thanks for the replies. I think maybe touching base with some guitar players I know personally, who are scattered all over the world at this point (but who know me and my playing) would perhaps be a better approcah than the one I have taken. Thanks again. Cheers.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 18:33:36
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:-) I understand the love of guitar gear. I have lots of guitars amps and pedals. Not as many as Space :-( but more than I need. If you really live to play, and want the best recording gear, you need a discrete topology class A microphone preamp (pick one... you'll want them all soon enough) that can translate wide dynamics without sounding strained and a bunch of different mics. I have Neuman TLM 103s, AKG 414's, and others but I also often use a EV RE20, a Sennhieser 609 or a Shure SM57 on my guitar cab. I'll probably buy a Shure S7 someday soon as well. I also think it's true that no matter how big an amp stack a guitar hero endorses, most recordings (ok not EC on the John Mayhall and The Blues Breakers Beano album) are done with small amps. It's easier to get the full range of dynamics out of a smaller amp than a large one. The last time B.B. King came to town the club rented my Fender Deluxe Reverb for his use. The house Twin was acting flaky. A lot of giging pros who travel extensively use rented backlines. The point being a lot of performing pros are very flexible with their willingness to use a wide variety of gear... and still have signature sounds. best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2007/10/19 18:46:16
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philo156
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/19 19:08:27
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ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
you need a discrete topology class A microphone preamp (pick one... you'll want them all soon enough) that can translate wide dynamics without sounding strained
I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I think that's what I might need to try (at least as a step one). And I hear exactly what your saying about those top notch guys and their ability to speak through any configurarion. But you know, my experience with that kind of thing is also that to some degree at least, being the 'pros' that they are, they also have the ability to just grin and bear it in some situations (without really letting on). But I knew this guys some years back who was fairly young at the time but was a smokin' straight ahead Jazz player. He played the axe left handed but didn't restring it. I use to trip watching him play as everything looked so wierd. But I remember once when playing his guitar that he had these huge, cable .13 guage strings on, the neck wasn't nearly as straight as it could be and the action was really high! I mean, it was one of the least 'playable' guitars that I have ever encountered. But he made that thing sound like Pat Martino meets Wes Montgomery. And he was VERY musical. So your point is well taken. Damn, just thinkin' about that guy. (I gota go practice!)
post edited by philo156 - 2007/10/19 19:20:49
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Rbh
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/10/29 23:49:01
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Just to retort ORIGINAL: mike_mccue
I'm not sure if you're making fun of me.
But that's a great list... and I'd venture to say most of those guys would get their "signature" sound out of just about any guitar rig you provided.
I had the pleasure of seeing Larry Carlton sit in on a few songs with Chet Atkins quite a few years ago. The most amazing thing about this concert was..... Larry Carton playing playing through a small crate amp,,,it might have had an 8" or 10" single speaker cab like a little practice combo amp...no effects onstage. He absolutly smoked the place, and then seeing a true master of the art Chet Atkins play as well. It was phenomonal. His band was the antithesis of having to have toys to make the best sounding music you could imagine. The drums were miced with 2 mics .. 1 close to the kick aimed at the whole set and the other about 3 feet out from the toms sort of aimed at them and the cymbals. simple combo bass rig and another small crate combo. All of it clean sounding and filling about 6000 seats. Real studio guys amaze me still.
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scottdb
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RE: Recording Guitar
2007/11/02 14:59:40
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I use a Fender Princeton Recording amp.Take the line out signal to my Fireface 400, the take the speaker connection from the amp to an Axe trak.
Blend both sounds it sound fantastic to my ears.
I've tried hundreds of methods, from vox tonelabs, behringers, womanizers,demonizers, pods etc etc, but this is the best way for me thus far.
Ive also got a Mesa Boogie Studio Preamp, which sounds great too.
Sometimes I also mic up the fender with an SM57 and a KSM44, blend both to get a fat sound.
Cheers
Scott
PS- I posted something on this ages ago, check out the thread, lots of good suggestions from people-Think the topic was called 'How to record electric guitar without disturbing the neighbours'
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