?: mixing "heavy" drums..

Author
Frank Haas
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 2490
  • Joined: 2005/01/14 06:32:54
  • Status: offline
2007/11/18 04:02:30 (permalink)

?: mixing "heavy" drums..

Hi,

I am currently mixing a rather more powerfull rock band..
Drums are recorded so far, guitars are almost done, vocals are scheduled for next week..

I started messing around with the 10 drum tracks and it's working ok,.. ok for a pop-band.. (very "clean")
so I want to ask you what would you do to let it sound more "heavy (metal)"..
I guess compression,limiting and distortion is the glue..
Can somebody bring some light into this ?
here are my drums tracks:
1.) Overhead L
2.) Overhead R
3.) Kick
4.) Snare Top
5.) Snare Bottom
6.) Tom H
7.) Tom M
8.) Tom L
9.) HiHat
10.) Ride

Thank you
Frank
#1

16 Replies Related Threads

    yep
    Max Output Level: -34.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4057
    • Joined: 2004/01/26 15:21:41
    • Location: Hub of the Universe
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 12:34:04 (permalink)
    "Heavy Metal" has become such a broad category with really unusual production challenges these days that it is hard to generalize, but broadly speaking there are two kinds of "metal": Truly "heavy" mid-tempo stuff that is still more or less an extension of blues-based rock (Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Guns n' Roses tradition), and hyper-fast speed or thrash metal with the machine-gun double-kick patterns and blistering, metronomic palm-muted guitar riffs. For purposes of discussion I will call these "blues metal" vs "speed metal."

    In almost all metal and heavy rock production, key concerns are bass management and masking. The unique challenges in heavy music production are related to the unusual primacy of the guitar riff, and the tendency for that guitar riff to be a fairly low-frequency, heavily saturated sound.

    The simple fact is that metal arrangements are usually the exact opposite of how arrangements are "supposed" to be constructed. You have the guitars pounding out a riff already in the bass range, plus the bass pounding out a variant of the same riff, plus drums that tend to hit in sync with the guitar riff, and you often have zero instrumentation in the middle or upper ranges, other than the guitar solo and possibly the vocal (and the vocal is increasingly fighting to get to the bottom of the freq spectrum as well, these days). There is typically very little breathing space, frequency balance, or dynamic variation to the arrangement and it is way too easy for this kind of material to turn into a weak, mushy, muddy mess of low-end buildup with some papery drums and fizzy guitar overtones on top and a vocal that sounds completely disconnected from the instrumentation.

    If you are doing speed metal, the problems are amplified, because very often the notes are played in *such* fast succession that the low-frequency notes do not even have time to develop acoustically before the next note hits. The speed of the instrument parts is such that they are almost creating subsonic waveforms in and of themselves. Combine this with the super-saturated high-gain sounds that are popular in the genre and it is very easy to end up with an almost atonal vortex of steady-state white-noise, regardless of the quality of your mics and such.

    Common practice in commercial radio mixing is to bring up the kick, snare, and bass first and then build the rest of the mix around those instruments, which comprise the foundation of the track. But a metal mix is often contructed differently, particularly speed metal. Here, the guitar riff is often performing an overlapping role of impact, rythm, and bass, where the bassy "meat" of the track is not coming from a fat, round bass sound but from the lower-midrange "wub-wub" of the guitar chugs. Indeed, in a fast dropped-D track, the fundamental of the bass may need to be cut out almost completely because it is simply to low to perform any useful role in a conventional mix at such speeds, and the bass becomes a sort of stringy, growly "third guitar" accompaniment track in the upper midrange.

    Similarly, the drums and especially the kick/snare pattern that are typically the primary core of the song often take on a different role, where they are supporting and giving impact to the guitar riff, and it is often necessary to use fairly extreme and counter-intuitive eq and dynamics processing to get everything to fit together. Particularly, it is not unusual to have almost all of the lows rolled off of the kick drum so that it is reduced to a very "clicky" beater sound. Additionally the snare is often gated or processed in such a way as to take out most of the explosive "boom." The net result is a solo drum track that sounds very unnatural and possibly quite wimpy, but that is able to fit in with the giant guitar track in a way that is impactful without obscuring.

    The central problem is the massive full-spectrum sound of super high-gain guitar. It is necessarily going to mask or be masked by other instruments, so you have to decide what's important. The closer you get to "speed"-style metal, and the lower in frequency the central guitar riff, the more these problems accumulate, but they are considerations in almost all heavy rock mixing, simply because the guitar, in order to sound right, has to take up *such* a huge block of sound.

    I know that this doesn't give much specific advice regarding drums, but I guess that's kind of the nature of the beast. This is a uniquely challenging genre to manage, and very often one where a "good drum mix" simply doesn't work. You really have to think through the particular artist and track and be willing to think outside the box, and the comprimises may be severe before you can get all the instruments working together. It's kind of a matter of figuring out how much you can get away with. I might be over-stating some of this stuff as it applies to your particular situation, but if you start out ready and willing to push the limits and break the rules, then it will often go easier.

    FWIW, sample-replaced drums are very common in metal recordings and are worth exploring if you are having difficulty getting the right sound.

    Cheers.
    #2
    Frank Haas
    Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2490
    • Joined: 2005/01/14 06:32:54
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 13:28:00 (permalink)
    thank you yep !!
    I was hoping so much that you would reply to this thread but was afraid to ask..
    there are so many usefull threads of yours around here..
    just started yesterday some of your "motown" voice processing.. very very inspiring..

    the main problem with the drums is that I am used to start with snare and kick, and bass.. and have a good balance of these instruments.. but they sound too "popy".. not too good for the sound that would fit to the current band..
    They are more inspired by motley crue, kiss, poison..
    the drum patterns aren't very fast, nor are they "heavy".. so I was looking for a way to make it sound heavy.. maybe heavier than the recording/song actually is..

    I will pick some of my poison and def lepard cds and have.. ah.. ok, not def leppard , and have an ear on their sound..
    I will certainly come back to this thread when the bass is recorded..
    thank you so much till now
    best
    Frank
    post edited by Frank Haas - 2007/11/18 13:39:28
    #3
    yep
    Max Output Level: -34.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4057
    • Joined: 2004/01/26 15:21:41
    • Location: Hub of the Universe
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 13:58:49 (permalink)
    If it's more midrangey, midtempo stuff, then some distortion and/or gated reverb can help a lot with with making "huge" arena-rock type drum sounds. For a "big beat" sound you can use dynamics and ambience effects to try and "time" the length of the drum hits so that they decay just as the next hit falls.

    edit: If your OHs sound good, I would also encourage you to try and build the drum "sound" around the overheads. IOW, you might start with your bass/kick/snare mix just to get the "feel" of the groove working, and then try to build your size and your sound around the room mics rather than the solo kick and snare tracks. By the same token, where you have a lot of drum tracks, remember that you may not actually need to use every single mic in the mix, and that the tom mics for instance might only be used during say "special" drum-roll breakdowns or whatever. In professional studios the close mics are often used primarily as backup "insurance" just in case they are needed. For a whole lot of reasons it is often easier to get better results with fewer mics if you can. A lot depends on the overall quality of the kit and the room and the captured tracks.

    Cheers.
    post edited by yep - 2007/11/18 14:18:46
    #4
    droddey
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5147
    • Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
    • Location: Mountain View, CA
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 14:56:48 (permalink)
    If you just want to add some oomph, then the old tried and true parallel compression is easy to do, though it does add some overhead to the project.

    While we are on the subject, and overheads came up.... I use BFD, so of course I don't have a real live drum recording experience myself. But, OTOH, the BFD samples, particularly the expansion packs, are way, way better than anything I could ever record, with very expensive mics and pres in good rooms.

    But I just never find that overhead and room mics work for me. They always sound congested and even in a tight room they are too roomy, and they just make my mix sound messy, though they do really provide a lot of punch. But I've been playing around with just tossing the overheads and rooms out completely and just using the directs and I like the sound myself. Add a little high quality convolution reverb to get back some ambience, and it's so much cleaner.

    I can't help but think maybe I'm missing something here, but even with fairly heavy EQ on the overheads they sound muffled and congested compared to the directs, and even the relatively small amount of room in the expansion pack overheads just seems excessively sloppy to me really.

    Dean Roddey
    Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
    www.charmedquark.com
    #5
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 17:15:34 (permalink)
    You might want to consider doubling the kick and toms with synth drums. Adding a low-pitched sinusoidal-type synthesized drum can give the illusion that the drum is bigger and deeper than it really is. I've had good luck using the good old TTS-1 to reinforce a drum track. It doesn't have to be very loud, just enough to add some bottom.

    Another hallmark of a lot of heavy metal (I'm thinking more of classic bands such as Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple) is that there is a lot more room ambiance in the drums than in mainstream pop. Your parts have already been recorded, so moving microphones around isn't an option, but some well-placed reverb and/or short delay could achieve a similar feel.




    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #6
    yep
    Max Output Level: -34.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4057
    • Joined: 2004/01/26 15:21:41
    • Location: Hub of the Universe
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 22:34:19 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: droddey
    .... I use BFD...I just never find that overhead and room mics work for me...I can't help but think maybe I'm missing something here...

    Well, first off, something like BFD is starting with exquisitely-recorded drums that are already perfectly phase-aligned and recorded ideally to begin with, so my above statements about it being "easier" to get better results with fewer mics go right out the window. With that kind of software it's *all* easy so there is no need to sweat phase or ugly bleed or noise accumulation or any of the issues that come up with real-world multi-mic scenarios.

    Secondly, the statement I made about starting with fewer mics was very much an "if it sounds good" kind of thing. If close mics are giving you the sound you want and room mics are not, there you go. There are a lot of different notions of what constitutes a "good" drum sound, and there is no reason that one or the other should be right for everyone, so there's no reason to think that you're "missing something." It may just be that you like close-miked drums, or that BFD's OHs are not your cup of tea, or that they recorded in a different kind of room from what you would use, or that the ambient sound in their recording room clashes with your other tracks... who knows?

    In all cases, your ears are better arbiters than anyone on any internet forum, including me. There is an awful lot of very popular and successful music that I do not much care for, and the same is true of anyone you encounter. Who is to say which of us are right or wrong? If you like the way it sounds, it's good.

    Cheers.
    #7
    jacktheexcynic
    Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3069
    • Joined: 2004/07/07 11:47:11
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 22:45:34 (permalink)
    i was going to make a similar comment regarding stuff like BFD and DFHS. i typically leave the OHs in DFHS but more and more i'm bringing down the ambiance tracks. it all depends though on the mix - in a light mix i like having that filled-out sound with the drums, in a heavy mix it just muds stuff up. but the OP did want less of a clean sound, and that's what room mics will give you.

    - jack the ex-cynic
    #8
    ru
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 555
    • Joined: 2007/09/18 14:31:36
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/18 23:23:15 (permalink)
    in general, besides quieter levels all around and complementary eq, anyone have thoughts on how to leave softer percussion exposed in a mix?
    #9
    droddey
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5147
    • Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
    • Location: Mountain View, CA
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/19 00:46:39 (permalink)
    So I've been on a mixing binge all day (taking the obligatory breaks of course, to keep from frying my ears and brain), and I've been experimenting. A little overhead still sounds good. I put the Ren strip on it, compressed it a bit, gated it a bit, and bring down the lower mids and roll off the highs and lows a bit, and it do provide some nice punch, even when kept quite low. And yeh, it's way easier than the real thing and you can even remove any drums from the overheads and rooms that you don't want (I take the cymbals out since I'm gating them and the cymbals sustain too long and cut off.) So it's a lot easier to tune it in just the way you want.

    And, yeh, this is a fairly heavy rock piece, and I'm sure I'd feel differently if I was doing something more open, and actualy the verses are quite open, and I may automate the overheads up a bit during that to give it some more ambience.

    Dean Roddey
    Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
    www.charmedquark.com
    #10
    bdickens
    Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 847
    • Joined: 2007/09/13 18:14:13
    • Location: Hockley, TX
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/19 08:05:18 (permalink)
    On the faster speed-metal stuff, or the down-tuned stuff, the kick drum is often more of a smack than a boom. Especially on the fast double-bass stuff.

    Byron Dickens
    #11
    themidiroom
    Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1170
    • Joined: 2004/01/21 11:41:56
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/19 10:37:06 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: yep
    In all cases, your ears are better arbiters than anyone on any internet forum, including me. If you like the way it sounds, it's good.

    Cheers.

    100% agreed.

    The MIDI Room
    We Make You Sound Great!
    http://www.themidiroom.com

    Pro Tools HD
    Sonar Producer Edition
    Wavelab
    #12
    jacktheexcynic
    Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3069
    • Joined: 2004/07/07 11:47:11
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/19 18:48:00 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: ru
    in general, besides quieter levels all around and complementary eq, anyone have thoughts on how to leave softer percussion exposed in a mix?


    panning and compression. not too much compression, but a fair amount. new york/motown compression in particular (compressor on a send).

    - jack the ex-cynic
    #13
    ru
    Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 555
    • Joined: 2007/09/18 14:31:36
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/21 15:27:01 (permalink)
    thanks, jack.
    i think the motown trick is a good strategy.
    remember reading an article about that a few years ago, but didn't have the means to implement it.
    #14
    droddey
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5147
    • Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
    • Location: Mountain View, CA
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/21 17:35:43 (permalink)
    I've been continuing to experiment. I've got a pretty nice, big sound going now. It consists of:

    1. Overheads with some medium compression and a fairly quick attack and release. A big dip in the lower mids and lows and highs rolled off, so mostly it's peaks around the 1K-2K and 100 ranges, to emphasize mostly the share and upper range of the kick and just the more attacky parts of the toms, and just provides lower body for cymbals because of the high rolloff.

    2. Rooms I've removed the cymbals and high-hat tracks from. It has a somewhat similar EQ, some fairly high compression but letting more attach through, then putting a gate on it. So it becomes a sort of gated reverb, but the reverb is just room sound. I'm automating it off in the quiet parts of the tune.

    3. The snares, toms and kicks have their own busses, with their per-instrument compression and EQ, and I'm doing sends from those to a parallel compression buss, which has a bit of a smiley face EQ.

    4. Some of the individual drums have their own EQ. The snare because it's so fiddly to get a good sound, and I'm using a crunchy snare that has radically different top/bottom sounds, and the toms because they all need slightly different high/low rolloff and interior cuts because their 'boing' range is different in each case.

    5. Muting is up pretty high in BFD on all of the kick, snare and tom pieces, so keep them pretty dry and tight in the directs. This provides something like gating with a high floor, but much more cleanly and doesn't provide a sudden cuttoff, it just rolls off the tails within BFD. It's quite nice to have.

    6. Direct cymbals are rolled off quite high, since the overheads are provdiing the body in a more back in the background sort of way, and the directs are providing more of the up front sizzle, but rolled of down around 10K so they don't sizzle too much (which tends to sound really bad on cheap speakers, it seems to me.)


    Anyway, that's providing a quite nice and punchy and big sound, with just the tiniest bits of verb on the kick and toms and a little more on the snare to give it some size. I have to automate out the room on the quiet parts because the faux gated reverb doesn't sound so nice there where you can really hear it happening and it makes them too roomy.
    post edited by droddey - 2007/11/21 17:49:37

    Dean Roddey
    Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
    www.charmedquark.com
    #15
    jacktheexcynic
    Max Output Level: -44.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3069
    • Joined: 2004/07/07 11:47:11
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/21 19:06:48 (permalink)
    dean, thanks for posting that. some good ideas there which i may try out on DFHS. i've found parallel compression the most helpful so far in bringing the kick, snare and toms to the front of the mix without having to turn them way up.

    - jack the ex-cynic
    #16
    wickerman
    Max Output Level: -70 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1039
    • Joined: 2005/10/22 19:07:16
    • Location: WV
    • Status: offline
    RE: ?: mixing "heavy" drums.. 2007/11/21 19:20:07 (permalink)
    What a great thread, I'm currently working on a 'verging-on-speed-metal -but more-thrash-progressive' tune and have got some great info from you guys.

    Man, thanks to everyone that posts here......truely priceless.
    #17
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1