Track bleeding through to vocal track

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No How
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 14:36:31 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: RobertB

I've put this little exercise together to make sure we are seeing and hearing the same thing. It starts from ground zero...
...Let me know how you're looking so far, and we can proceed.
I realize you probably know most of this, but there are others who may be taggin along.

You are wise to assume i know NOTHING.

I went through all steps and everything is ducky so far.

i do hear a "nip" sound every couple seconds or so.

s o n g s

  – Beauty lodged in a bad hotel has no value.  Raymond Lull
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RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 16:02:33 (permalink)
Is there anything to indicate where that "nip" sound is coming from? Open Patchmix and watch the meters. do you see a spike when you hear the noise? If so, where do you see it?
I'm looking ahead a bit, but when you record your MIDI tracks, are you using a controller/keyboard or punching notes into prv or staff view?
Don't insert any effects just yet.
When you recorded the track you just did, was the signal from the Left or Right input?

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No How
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 18:16:14 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: RobertB

Is there anything to indicate where that "nip" sound is coming from? Open Patchmix and watch the meters. do you see a spike when you hear the noise? If so, where do you see it?
I'm looking ahead a bit, but when you record your MIDI tracks, are you using a controller/keyboard or punching notes into prv or staff view?
Don't insert any effects just yet.
When you recorded the track you just did, was the signal from the Left or Right input?



so sorry for the delay...had to pick up the kids and drop others off....huff, huff, huff...lol

There was no spike.
the "nip" sound is coming from MC3 i believe because it is not there now with just patchmix open. I think it has something to do with latency settings.

I use a keyboard for midi.

signal was from right input.

post edited by No How - 2008/04/05 19:44:22

s o n g s

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RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 19:32:47 (permalink)
Stand by, Rick. I'm typing my little fingers off.
Almost done with the next post

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RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 19:43:01 (permalink)
No problem on the delay. Actually my daughter stopped by this afternoon, and it was nice to visit with her for a while.
Sidebar: I am not familliar with the AMD hierarchy, and your Sempron may be on a par with a comperable Celeron CPU. All this means is we have to allow more room for it to breathe. I have to do the same thing with my P4, which is fairly slow by today's standards. The Celeron would have a slightly lower threshold before it starts to choke.

We are going to record all of your "live" tracks first, dry, with no effects. EQs can drain some power, but compressors, and reverbs especially will really work your CPU. Multiple 'verbs can get brutal. This is where a bus can help a lot.
Go to Options>Audio>Advanced. What is your I/O Buffer Size set to? I have good luck with it set to 128Kb. If I stray too far from that, the pops and stutters start to kick in. You might want to experiment with this setting, as your particular system may find harmony at a slightly different size.
Also, keep your Sample Rate set to 44100, File Bit Depth at 24. Your Audio Driver should be locked at 24.

Since you record your MIDI with a keyboard, latency is crucial, and we need to hold off on effects 'til you have those tracks recorded as well.
Did you export your initial project to a RIFF Wave?
Let's import that to track 3. We will use this as a guide track as we rebuild the project. It may actually be fine as it is, but let's use it for reference anyway.
Note:(for anybody following this). You can import wav or MP3 files to use as a guide track, and this step is a building block when doing collab projects with other users. Click on the track # in the track view. It will light up.Hit [W] on your keyboard to rewind to start. Go to File>Import>Audio and select the file you want to import. Click ok, and viola!.
Back to the program.
Let's record your vocal track now, with the one audio track playing as acompaniment.
Can I assume the audio currently recorded to track 2 (from the Right Input) is just test material?
If so, delete that data, rewind, and arm track 2 to record. With only the one audio track (track 3) playing, you should be fine at 10ms latency.
Hit record, and record your vocal track.
Next stop, adding the synths in real time.








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No How
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 20:02:26 (permalink)
Hi Robert,

Did all you wrote down. My I/O is at 129kb. I'm 44100 and 24.
(These step by step threads will be of tremendous value to many wobbly cakewalkers like myself. Great idea!)

I won't be able to record a vocal till after the noise parade goes to the land of Nod. It's pandamonium here till 10:00pm.

So glad you had time to visit with your daughter.

I'll be back after i finish this daddy shift.

s o n g s

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RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 20:06:18 (permalink)
Enjoy the pandemonium. It seems to be gone before you know it.

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No How
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 22:44:40 (permalink)
i recorded a vocal on track one.

everything is dry...no effects or eq.

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RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 23:33:36 (permalink)
Ok, let's roll into the synths.
I don't have String Theory, so I'm not sure how hard it hits the CPU.
Of the others, Abakos seems to be the heaviest, taking 14% all by itself here. Edirol VSC can vary, depending on how many voices you are using. Crazy Diamonds is fairly light, pulling 7% CPU.
The creative flow can vary, but ideally, you will want to record your heavy hitters first, and bounce to audio as soon as possible.
With most synths, "First Synth Audio Output" is sufficient, and you don't need to select "All Synth Audio Outputs" when you insert the synth.
Always select MIDI Source, Synth Property Page, and Synth Rack View.
A note here, and I should have mentioned it earlier, is to use the metronome or a click track when you record your audio tracks.
If you are singing or playing a song that has a natural rhythm, set the BPM to you. Don't try to force yourself to line up with a tempo that doesn't feel right for what you are playing. I think that is the biggest problem for people when trying to play to a metronome. But use something to keep you in time. Once your audio track is rendered, it is difficult, if not impossible to adjust. Use the metronome or click track if you are playing MIDI tracks live as well. If you add MIDI drum patterns or whatever later, they will sync to the BPM.
OK. Record your MIDI track for the first synth you have inserted. Don't like it? Delete it and play it again. If it's pretty close, but just needs some touch-up, you can switch to Piano Roll and fine tune it. If you are entering all of your MIDI notes from PRV or Staff view, latency is not an issue, and you don't need to worry about this. Here, we are concerned with recording MIDI "live".
If you start to experience random pops and/or dropouts, you can archive your MIDI tracks. The pops/dropouts are indicators that your CPU is working too hard, and can't keep up.
Once you have the MIDI/synth recorded to where you want it, hold [CTRL] and click on the track # of the MIDI track and the synth track that you are using. They will both light up.
Click Edit>Bounce to Track. Since we are sending all our outputs to the Master bus, the Source Category can be Buses or Tracks. Click OK.
You will see a new audio track appear, with a waveform of your MIDI track.
Now you can Archive the synth track. Right click in the track pane(The view to the left, with all the information, not where you see the waveforms and MIDI data). Click Archive. This effectively puts the synth to sleep, and it will not be using CPU power. If you decide you want to make some changes, you can unarchive the synth, and make whatever changes you need.
For now, the synth is rendered to an audio track, and will play back like any other audio track, without the CPU load of an active synth.
Rinse, and repeat, until you have all of your tracks recorded.
At this point, we have no EQ, reverb, or any other effects in place. Everything is "dry", and you need to have a kind of abstract mental picture of wht you want to do with it.
Up 'til now, we have maintained a low latency setting, since we have been recording our synths live. We are ready to enter the next phase, mixing, where latency is not an issue. Go to Options>Audio and bump the latency to around 50ms. This number is not super critical. The important thing is that the processes have time to finish. If it is too low, this is where you get drop-outs. This is also where the art of the mix comes into play. For instance, use busses for your reverb. Rather than having individual reverbs for each track, send them to a bus with a reverb, and apply it to varying degrees. Use EQ to make space for instruments that occupy the same sonic space. Use panning to place your instruments in the stereo field.
If this makes sense so far, you're doing good. This is a wild, challenging, but gratifying ride.
post edited by RobertB - 2008/04/05 23:52:54

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Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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No How
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/05 23:53:41 (permalink)
It's really a fantastic tutorial.

I'm familiar with some of it up to the buss part.
If i use a bus will i have control over the degree of that effect on different tracks? What if i don't want the same amount of reverb on 3 different tracks?

Up to the mix my latency setting is at 8 then i bump up to 50 at mixing?


s o n g s

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RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/06 00:54:29 (permalink)
I think you are getting the idea. Record at low latency, mix high.
Here's a link to a thread on using busses.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1302521
It is specifically for Guitar Tracks, so the graphics are a little different, but the concept is the same, and you have most everything in MC that is in GT. It's a close Cakewalk cousin.
Yes, you can vary the degree to which the reverb effect is applied by adjusting the send level. You have amazing control over how your instruments appear in a three dimensional space. It's a bit tricky, but take your time and explore it. Listen to Steve's before and after clips. They give a pretty good idea of what you can do.
keep going. You are asking some great questions.
Footnote: I haven't messed with Crazy Diamonds for a while, but I have been playing with the Jarres' home patch for the past few hours. Thanks for reminding me of this one. This is a killer patch.
post edited by RobertB - 2008/04/06 01:31:46

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Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/06 01:24:44 (permalink)
I see...you control at the send.

yes, these are fantastic synths....i had many many more but dumped them because they were small range sounds or just too 70's sounding. The abakos is a copy of a 70's analog but it has much more and the bass sounds are solid and deep.

I am really exploring and enjoying the STring Theory synth. fun stuff!.

i will read and re read your tutorial...it has helped me see where i'm at and what i'm actually doing right.

the big thing is the latency. record low...mix high.

as usual, you have gone beyond the call of duty to assist me and i am extremely grateful.

hopefully there will be a song soon...

Thank you,

Rick

s o n g s

  – Beauty lodged in a bad hotel has no value.  Raymond Lull
Mamabear
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/04/06 08:38:51 (permalink)
You are asking some great questions.


And you are giving some darn good answers, Bob. Wow! Keep this thread handy for reference!
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/05/09 21:34:15 (permalink)
Kind of having the same problem... only drums are bleeding into guitar tracks
Just installed m-audio 2496 replacing the SB it's hooked straight into the mixer
RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/05/09 21:49:20 (permalink)
Mr. J,
Similar symptoms can have unique causes. There are several places where the bleed might be coming from, so tell us, in as much detail as you can, what your hardware is, how it is configured, and what your settings are.
You might also want to start a new thread, just so we can keep things tidy.

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mr_juneu
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/05/09 22:09:13 (permalink)
amd athlon 64 2.4 gig
ram 1 gig dual channel
hard drive plenty
sound card m-audio 2496
I have all sttings in default cakewalk
the sound card is going straight into a berringer eurorack mixer
pretty new to this forum stuff so i'm not quite sure how to start a new thred....
i suppose theres a button somewhere
RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/05/09 22:37:34 (permalink)
From the main forum page there is a New Post button. That will start a new thread. No worries, we can follow through here.
How do you have the sound card going into the mixer? ie, exactly where is it connected. This could be the problem.

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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/05/10 10:56:11 (permalink)
I'm also following your tutorial here RobertB and I've grabbed all your notes into a Word doc and also your link to the other samples with Busses pics. Printed them all out for reference. This is an area I find really, super brain-busting and I will need to work through it several times over, but I can see this fills in a lot of the gaps of what always seemed so mysterious to me. Can't thank you enough for giving your time and doing all this for us new folks! This is what you just can't get in a manual or CW support!

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RobertB
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RE: Track bleeding through to vocal track 2008/05/16 14:10:01 (permalink)
bump

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Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
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