Complex Time Signatures and Editing

Before I upgrade to Sonar 3 I would like to know if this is still a problem:

I do a lot of complex time signatures and changes in my music. In earlier Cakewalk products I had a lot of trouble with my time stuff getting really whacked by Cakewalk, especially during cut/copy/paste style editing.

As a beta tester of several products up to and including Sonar 1, I reported these problems and even supplied sample files that demonstrated the problem. I could not believe it when nothing changed.

I was then forced to start using Cubase VST/32 which worked fine with respect to my time issues. I tried again with Sonar 2 and it still got whacked, so I stuck with VST/32.

Now I would like to either upgrade to Cubase SX 2 or to Sonar 3. I like Cakewalk as a company and don't really like Stenberg's attitude and lack of support. I like and dislike many things about the Steinberg product.

Sonar is looking very appealing if I can be assured that it will work for my time issues.

Can anybody shed some light on this?

Bob Hoke

I don't think I've had any problems with copy and paste other than making sure the clip will fit in the right place, but the problem I have with it is that I can't seem to add just one measure of 5/4 for example without the remaining measures changing to 5/4. Of course I go to the next measure and correct it, but it seems this is an unnecessary step.

Thanks to all for your responses.

Here is an attempt to better explain the problem:

Set up and record a song with alternating A and B sections, make the A sections be in 7/4 and make the B sections be in 4/4. Copy the A section and insert it as a second copy before the B section, making sure all the appropriate options are selected during the copy and paste to copy all time information.

What used to happen was that the operation would hose (usually all) time changes after the insert point and I would have to MANUALLY figure out what happened and fix them. It was as if the time signature list lost synch with the MIDI and Audio. I would usually have to delete all the wrong changes and insert new changes at the correct places.

I used to really get frustrated with that, especially as songs got more complex. There are forms of music that actually change time signatures, I am not THAT wierd.

It was interesting to me that Cubase was able to handle this type thing, but there are other issues with Cubase...

Bob

ORIGINAL: bhoke
I used to really get frustrated with that, especially as songs got more complex. There are forms of music that actually change time signatures, I am not THAT wierd.

Not weird at all. I do no original composition in Sonar, only in Finale, because Sonar is seriously broken in many ways. Sonar is absolutely incapable of handling these time signature changes without self-destructing. There are a number of areas that need to be improved before Sonar is truly professional -- this is one, beats per minute is another, and formula-based plugins is a third. There are lots more, including making its notation cross-platform compatible and exportable, etc., etc.

I only have Sonar 2.2, but I'll guess Cakewalk didn't bother with any of these (again).

Grey

And I should have specified that my situation was in Sonar 2--not 3. Glad to hear there's no problem!
Thanks for the response,
CAA

I believe there still are some idiosyncrasies in the way Sonar 3 handles meter changes that take some getting used to. I'm just finishing a piece for chorus and soundscape that's about 150 measures long with various meters throughout, 9/4, 6/4, 3/2, 4/2, 2/2, etc. I think you can duplicate the problem I encounter Ron, if you adjust your test sequence to have more than 2 measures of each meter and do the following:

For instance, if m.1 - 7/4, m.7 - 4/4, m.12 - 7/4, m.18 - 4/4.

Now, if you change the meter for m.9 to 5/4, I believe you'll see that m.9-11 will all change to 5/4 and skew the notation 1 beat from m.10 on, which may be understandable, but not necessarily what you would expect or want to happen.

If I've written 6 measures of 4/4 music from m.7-12, and decide one chord needs to be extended 1 beat and make the meter for that measure 5/4, I don't want the following measures up to the next meter signature to change, as well.

Work arounds are to re-enter the correct meter for the measure after your change (m.10 back to 4/4/, in this example), or at the onset, enter the meter signature for every measure in the sequence, which is time consuming at the beginning, but worthwhile later on. I do believe, even after correcting the meter issue using either work around, you'll need to go back and adjust all the clips (in other tracks) that were affected by the meter change.

What I was expecting Sonar to do was behave as notation programs such as Finale. That is, if I change the meter in one measure, all other measures would be unaffected, unless I specify the change to be over a range of measures.

This is not that problematic for me. I write my choral scores in Finale and create the soundscape sequences in Sonar. However, I do import a midi file of my choral score and insert it into the soundscape for reference, and this is where I noticed the problem. As I created the soundscape, and changed meters preceding the choral clip, the choral clip would become skewed by the amount of change.

Grey,

Thanks for the compliments. I don't know Thomas Massella, I'll have to check around. I try to support all the regional composers (music doesn’t have to be a competition).

Regarding "Dicite!", you wouldn't believe how I struggled with the conductor on that piece. She & I just couldn't see eye-to-eye. The tempo's too slow and there's not enough buoyancy in the sound. You're right about the chorus' first entrance (it's hard to get everyone started on a word like "Quem"). As I recall, other takes had a better beginning, but the intonation on this one was the best.

The "Dicite!" preview on the web site is only about 1/3 of the piece. When I get home this evening, I'll bounce the whole track and upload it...it has a neat finish (though the conductor bollixed up the ending, as well!) :(

Glenn @ Reindeer Music

Hi Glen,

I just wanted to take a moment to tell you how moved I was by your work, it is very rare indeed to uncover such beautiful compositions. I urge everyone to give a listen, what you will discover will be both emotional and educational. I have bookmarked your site and look forward to spending more time there, what a great find for the season !!

The old Pro Audio programs used to be very screwed up in the area of cut and paste. I think Sonar (at least since 1.3) is much better.

However, I think the bigger issue is that Sonar's edit tools are ruthlessly mathematical (add a different time sig, and the rest of the song obediently screws up unless you compensate later). What I've asked for is a set of edit tools that are "compositional and arrangement" friendly. Basically a menu of edit tools that allow you to think creatively about arrangement rather than worry about the negative side-effects of your edits.

Examples:
Instead of "Insert time signature" at the NOW time, how about "Insert x new blank measures of 5/4 across all tracks and revert to 4/4 afterward".

Instead of treating a time or key sig change as an instantaneous event that can be deleted, affecting the rest of the song, it should be a fundamental property of a time range, so that any deletions within that time range do not alter the following measures.

An arrangement edit toolset should operate on all tracks without regard to clip selection. Its just a FROM->THRU time thing that splits clips as appropriate.

Additionally, I'd like to see some fancier new tools for fitting a time line and time/key sigs to freely-recorded material (kindof a super-Fit to Improvization feature.) Fit to Improv is cool but there are some very limiting rules about how and when you can successfully use it. Instead, what if I could select a time range in a free-form audio file, and designate the measure start, end, time sig, etc, and have Sonar "frame" that section. Then I could go in and add "fit-points" to the audio to fine tune tempo and other things. I think most of that technology may already be in the groove clip feature.

Mike

Andrew, with respect to your wanting old problems fixed before getting into new features, I agree. However I feel that this is (or maybe "was") indeed an old problem. I hardly think cut/copy/paste and Insert Measures are new features and they should work properly regarless of what is going on with time signatures. These problems existed with Pro Audio and the first 2 versions of Sonar.

Don't get me wrong, I really respect Cakewalk and I want them to continue to make Sonar so good that it gets all the respect it deserves for professional use. To their credit I understand that they have been working on this issue already. Their support is orders of magnitude better than Steinberg and others, at least Cakewalk responds.

I am encouraged by what Ron has said and look forward to trying it for myself. If this issue is really fixed I will be pleased to come back to Sonar and ditch Cubase. I have used Cakewalk since the DOS days and would like to return.

Bob

ORIGINAL: Andrew Milne
Unfortunately the insert measures problem has not been fixed in 3.0

No, it has not been fixed. Every time this topic comes up i'm glad to chime in with my frustration and angst that this has not been addressed in all these years. It just seems totally asinine to me that in a program as complex and complete as Sonar, i cannot do a simple insert of an odd time sig without literally screwing up the entire remainder of the song.

ORIGINAL: BillW
Does anybody know what Cakewalk's stance is on this? Have they stated that it wasn't important enough to address it?

In thier silence, yes.

Hey, another progrocker, cool. As long as you have a set arrangement and get all your time changes laid out first, you'll be fine. If however you decide you want a few 11/8 bars in the middle of that 5/4 section, you're screwed. Be prepared for what could be hours of hair-pulling madness trying to make it work. Sadly, i have actually opted to NOT make such changes to a song, even tho i wanted to, simply because i was not willing to hack things to shreds to make it work.

As far as I can tell, no advances have been made on this functionality as of SONAR X3. It seems to be as awkward to use (for complex signature timeline editing) as ever.
 
That's kind of sad.