Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
Here it is: http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6522192 I've been experimenting with mic placement all month, and I still don't have it quite right. So I figured I'd upload a clip, and maybe you guys can hear the problem. In a nutshell, I think it sounds too "nasal". Others have said that it sounds a bit thin. What can I do to improve it? Mic setup: a pair of LDC (tube) mics, each 6" in front of the cello's f-holes (L&R). Both are pointed at the bridge, 90degrees off axis from each other. It's basically a stereo X-Y setup with the mics separated by about 12". Room: A very small booth, covered with absorber. (Since I'm in a noisy neighborhood, total isolation is my only option) EQ: No EQ (could this be my problem?) FX: None, totally dry. Any suggestions on getting a fuller sound will be much appreciated!  [Note: Updated, see post #19 at the bottom of the page]
post edited by Spaceduck - 2008/05/23 08:19:56
|
rumleymusic
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1533
- Joined: 2006/08/23 18:03:05
- Location: California
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 12:19:28
(permalink)
Actually, it sounds rather good, not very nasal at all. If you want it warmer, try moving the mics back. The rich sound of a Cello is a cumlination of the entire sound board and the room it is in. Try placing the mic 2 or 3 feet away. If you want to stay close, try pointing the mics closer to the neck to get a warmer sound (the bridge contains the harshest harmonics). To get that great, huge, symphonic sound, the best thing you can do is rent a concert hall, get a few Neumann M50's and a Stradiverius Cello. Otherwise, you might have to settle somewhat 
|
Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 12:33:26
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: rumleymusic
Actually, it sounds rather good, not very nasal at all. If you want it warmer, try moving the mics back. The rich sound of a Cello is a cumlination of the entire sound board and the room it is in. Try placing the mic 2 or 3 feet away. Thanks rum! No wonder, I've had it all backwards... I kept moving the mics closer, thinking that would give me "warmer". But what you said makes sense, I should really find the room's sweet spot. ORIGINAL: rumleymusic
To get that great, huge, symphonic sound, the best thing you can do is rent a concert hall, get a few Neumann M50's and a Stradiverius Cello. Otherwise, you might have to settle somewhat
No kidding. One day, man, one day... But until then I'll have to fudge it. I had some decent results when I experimented with some reverb, but I'm always reluctant to add reverb because the results can be unpredictable in the final mix. I usually try to keep everything clean & dry, but in this case (where the cello is the solo instrument), the flaws of my small setup become pretty noticeable.
|
bilbosblues
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 415
- Joined: 2008/04/15 20:13:11
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 12:57:34
(permalink)
wonderful amigo
love the tone of the wood
I wouldn't change a thing
you could add just A TOUCH of reverb
|
Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 13:18:22
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: bilbosblues
wonderful amigo
love the tone of the wood
I wouldn't change a thing
you could add just A TOUCH of reverb
Thanks me jefe Maybe it's not that bad after all... Could be my ears just need a cleanin!?
|
bilbosblues
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 415
- Joined: 2008/04/15 20:13:11
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 14:03:32
(permalink)
like my Dad said once about painting a room, "You obsess over that one little chip in the corner..." but most would never even see it though the best engineers & painters obsess
|
foxwolfen
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8256
- Joined: 2008/03/29 23:41:47
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 16:07:13
(permalink)
I'm thinking, flanger, chorus and TubeAmp distortion... yeah... rock cello.  That thing got a whammy bar? Actually it sounded really nice. I agree maybe a hint of reverb to give it a bit of space. If your mics are polar adjustable, I might try a different pattern.
A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything. Composers Forum
|
Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 17:00:28
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: foxwolfen
That thing got a whammy bar? *milk comes out of nose* Gawd wouldn't that be a hoot. Funny thing, though, I did try feeding it through some distortion once thinking it would kick ass, but it didn't really have much of an impact at all. I think the natural waveform of a cello is already sort of "clipped square wave"-ish, so adding distortion doesn't change it a whole lot. But now a heavy flanger, a wah pedal or a talk box... now we're gettin somewhere...
|
foxwolfen
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8256
- Joined: 2008/03/29 23:41:47
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 19:28:41
(permalink)
Why not I say... ELO made good use of Cello in rock. Nothing is sacred as far as I am concerned. By the way...was that you playing? Who ever it was impressed me. Cello is IMO very hard to make sound good (recording not withstanding).
A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything. Composers Forum
|
Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/06 20:20:34
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: foxwolfen
By the way...was that you playing? Who ever it was impressed me. Cello is IMO very hard to make sound good (recording not withstanding).
Yuppers that was me. Thanks man! Yeah cello is a real bear to play. I've been scratching away for 10+ years and I've still got a lonnng way to go. But you gotta love an instrument that can instantly strike fear into peoples' hearts with just two notes. (Think "Jaws")
|
aaronk
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1275
- Joined: 2005/12/09 16:33:31
- Location: HT&E
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/07 19:46:46
(permalink)
and a Stradiverius Cello. I believe there's only one of those in the entire world, and I don't think Mr. Ma is sharing it . . .
|
aaronk
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1275
- Joined: 2005/12/09 16:33:31
- Location: HT&E
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/07 19:53:51
(permalink)
Mic setup: a pair of LDC (tube) mics, each 6" in front of the cello's f-holes (L&R). Both are pointed at the bridge, 90degrees off axis from each other. It's basically a stereo X-Y setup with the mics separated by about 12". I've gotten good results with a single ribbon mike (Fat Head, $150); it really does make a 'cello sound "velvety" (if that's what you want). I'm not sure I'd go for a stereo X-Y as my first bet. If I were to use two mikes, I'd be more likely to have a main mike aimed at the bridge (as previously noted, 2-3 feet away -- too close can result in an overly boomy sound) and a second aimed at a point near the bottom of the fingerboard. I might, or might not, end up mixing the fingerboard track in. I've tried a mid-side approach as well, but I think all that really accomplished was a boost in level from having the two mikes, without much of substance being added to the quality of the recording.
|
Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/07 20:25:29
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: aaronk
and a Stradiverius Cello.
I believe there's only one of those in the entire world, and I don't think Mr. Ma is sharing it . . .
I heard it's technically "on loan" to him. Even Yo Yo Ma can't afford to buy the dang thing. ORIGINAL: aaronk
I've gotten good results with a single ribbon mike (Fat Head, $150); it really does make a 'cello sound "velvety" (if that's what you want). I was just looking at that deal. Very tempting. Verrry. 'course I probably should pay my rent first. ORIGINAL: aaronk
I'm not sure I'd go for a stereo X-Y as my first bet. If I were to use two mikes, I'd be more likely to have a main mike aimed at the bridge (as previously noted, 2-3 feet away -- too close can result in an overly boomy sound) and a second aimed at a point near the bottom of the fingerboard. I might, or might not, end up mixing the fingerboard track in.
I've tried a mid-side approach as well, but I think all that really accomplished was a boost in level from having the two mikes, without much of substance being added to the quality of the recording.
I had lousy results with the M/S also. Glad it's not just me! I also tried Blumlein, but it didn't really do anything special because my room is so small. But I do like having a wide stereo image; that's why I did x-y. I bet if I back it off a few feet, it'll sound much better. Also I think I'll try adding a 3rd mic which may end up being the main one. Sort of a mini Decca tree Btw, another problem with having a mic too close... it really picks up the rosin grinding on the strings! For the longest time I thought I was getting distortion from clipping until I took a rag and wiped off the excess rosin. It went away.
|
rumleymusic
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1533
- Joined: 2006/08/23 18:03:05
- Location: California
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/08 12:45:27
(permalink)
I believe there's only one of those in the entire world, and I don't think Mr. Ma is sharing it . . . There are a few out there, but they are more rare than their violin conterparts. I knew a person who had one (Felix Fan). It is called the "Hausmann" Stradivarius, named after its most famous previous owner.
post edited by rumleymusic - 2008/05/08 12:46:29
|
foxwolfen
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8256
- Joined: 2008/03/29 23:41:47
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/08 13:20:21
(permalink)
There are 63 left apparently.
A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything. Composers Forum
|
rumleymusic
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1533
- Joined: 2006/08/23 18:03:05
- Location: California
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/08 13:33:39
(permalink)
To think that most of them are at or approaching 300 years old...amazing...talk about quality instruments.
|
Roflcopter
Max Output Level: -7.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6767
- Joined: 2007/04/27 19:10:06
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/08 14:17:11
(permalink)
love the tone of the wood Aye, that's one fine sound you got there, I've got nothing in VST that comes close.
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
|
foxwolfen
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8256
- Joined: 2008/03/29 23:41:47
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/08 14:19:32
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: rumleymusic
To think that most of them are at or approaching 300 years old...amazing...talk about quality instruments.
Nod Its remarkable that the glue lasted that long.
A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything. Composers Forum
|
Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/22 22:17:34
(permalink)
Hey gang, just an update after a few days of messing around... I followed y'alls suggestions, moving the mics back 1 or 2 feet, also aiming them higher toward the base of the fingerboard instead of straight at the bridge. I also added 2 mics in a Blumlein pair (figure 8 pattern) right up the middle--they ended up adding some nice subtle details like the bow attack as well as some low string grind. Overall, I think it "opened up" the sound a lot more Original (2 mic X/Y close setup) TEST #1 New (4 mic "Blumlein Quad" far) TEST #2 And just in case you want to see what it looked like, here's a pic. The old setup is circled in blue. The new setup adds the 2 mics in the green circle. Ignore the 2 mics that aren't plugged in; they were just for reference (and to look cool  ). Thanks for all your feedback & suggestions! I'll keep tweaking, but I think I'm getting really close to the sound I want. I think I might try this setup with an acoustic guitar next.... 
|
mattplaysguitar
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1992
- Joined: 2006/01/02 00:27:42
- Location: Gold Coast, Australia
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/22 23:11:28
(permalink)
Test 2 is sounding much better! I thought test 1 was too dry and just sounded too 'in your face'. Moving those mics back captured much nicer ambience - though I would still like to see it done in a nice church hall or something! I thought test 1 had this kind of dry-close-air-breathing sound that was really up there in the ultra highs and it just kinda sounded like harsh background room noise in a way. I didn't like it. Test 2 reduced that a lot and brought more room warmth into it. If you can find yourself a better room/hall to record in that would be perfect I think, otherwise maybe some more absorbers around the room and then some subtle hall impulses could sound good. It sounds much better miced farther away, but unfortunately the room doesn't quite work with it as well as a nice hall would. Either way, nice recordings!
|
Spaceduck
Max Output Level: -50.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2499
- Joined: 2004/12/29 12:51:03
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/23 07:38:18
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: mattplaysguitar
Test 2 is sounding much better! I thought test 1 was too dry and just sounded too 'in your face'. Moving those mics back captured much nicer ambience - though I would still like to see it done in a nice church hall or something! I thought test 1 had this kind of dry-close-air-breathing sound that was really up there in the ultra highs and it just kinda sounded like harsh background room noise in a way. I didn't like it. Test 2 reduced that a lot and brought more room warmth into it. If you can find yourself a better room/hall to record in that would be perfect I think, otherwise maybe some more absorbers around the room and then some subtle hall impulses could sound good. It sounds much better miced farther away, but unfortunately the room doesn't quite work with it as well as a nice hall would. Either way, nice recordings!
Thanks, matt! Ya, moving the mics back really helped a lot. Like you said, it really captures more of the room... but unfortunately that highlights what a bad room I have!  I guess it's just one of those things... when you improve one segment of the signal chain, it exposes another problem you have further down the line. Well I guess now I'll start scouring all the threads about room treatment, etc. Too bad I don't have the budget to add a big hall to my studio 
|
mattplaysguitar
Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1992
- Joined: 2006/01/02 00:27:42
- Location: Gold Coast, Australia
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/23 10:39:30
(permalink)
Room treatment is certainly amazing stuff. If you are pretty hands on and have a bit of time to spare and $100 or so you should be able to build up some quick acoustic panels out of some rockwool insulation and some cheap backing board and frame to hold it in place. That's essentially what I use, though I got lucky enough to find six 2x5 foot panels lying outside a renovating radio station... Anywho, careful placement of that stuff around you and your cello will make a HUGE difference in knocking back those reflections. Then some ultra light verb and you're set! Infact, if you have access to lots of mattresses, try using them instead. I find they are great. Make a mattress booth. Then put blankets everywhere. Though I think many people would probably not suggest trying to completely dampen the room for a cello, simply try to reduce the wetness till it's usable. Anyway, you get the idea. You sound like you know what you are talking about so I have no doubt you will find some form of adequate room treatment! Just remember, if worst comes to worst, there are ALWAYS blankets. They can be highly frustrating to set up, but they are always better than no blankets.
|
deadtolove
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 25
- Joined: 2008/04/07 07:02:52
- Location: Chelan WA
- Status: offline
RE: Recording a cello (listen to clip & comment plz)
2008/05/28 09:24:16
(permalink)
I totally agree with what matt playsguitar says about treating your room. The second test to me sounded like I could hear the room refections more then I could hear the cello, and the close micing of the first one killed some of this.
ATS acoustics, sells DYI acoustic panles as well as premade panels. They are relativly cheap as compared to what else is out there. Treat your room and try the new mic configuration and you should have a incredible sounding track.
|