gate technique on floor toms

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bilbosblues
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2008/05/08 21:58:26 (permalink)

gate technique on floor toms

can you guys give a short vibe on how to use the gate presets

I can't really hear too much of a difference when making adjustments

the track I'm currently working on has a floor tom "ringing" too long
note: the individual drums are all miked

part of this issue may be the head on the larger floor tom vibrating and over driving the signal in a sense...

however: attack, release, threshold ratio.... the setting don't seem to have a a causal change
and the generic green button gate mode is defaulted to off, change this??
my lack of experience with gate does not help matters

more detail, the tom hits have a long bzzzz at the end that I want to clip should the release be turned up??
thanks!
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    Rbh
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/08 23:37:51 (permalink)
    Are you trying to monitor the gate on the input? or just during playback. Basically for setting a gate on a percussive instrument , I would record the whole track....... split the clip around each Tom hit and then mute all the clips in the track except those that are purposeful strikes. Solo the track and set it up to loop around a few lower level hits. The gate range should be set to ( depending ) about -40 db. Set the threshhold high enough to only trigger on when there is a direct hit on the drum ... attack as fast as possible and the release timed to taste, There should be a range control that tells you at what level to reduce the volume to I'd say about 1.5 seconds on a floor tom. If set up correctly you should have a full volume attack and a slow volume fade to - 40 db... then a re-trigger on the next hit...and the cycle repeats. If you're happy then unmute all the the " empty " clips if that ambiance is critical to the over all mix.. if not.. loose them or keep muted and mix the individual Tom track in behind the over heads.

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    mgh
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 04:57:22 (permalink)
    hey what he said!

    and having heard the sample Jon you may have to do a manual fade out if you can't get the gate set up so it sounds realistic. another option would be to see what frequency the rumble is at and apply a high-pass filter to minimise the noise (assuming it's a lower frequency noise than the actual tom sound..)

    this is why the rest of us use Drum VSTs!

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    #3
    mattplaysguitar
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 06:12:52 (permalink)
    I use BFD for my drums and always use sonitus gate on it.

    Do the initial adjustments solo as it is easier to hear what is going on, but the final adjustments in the mix.

    Set your attack to zero. Problem with this is that you can get clipping/clicking/crackle if your gate is set to zero, so give it a look ahead of about 1ms and that should fix that problem up.

    Now I assume you have bleed from the other parts of the drums so you need to set your threshold low enough to let the tom hits in, but cut the rest of the kit out. If the line is very fine, just make sure the toms are getting through. Using the high/low cut (it's a sidechain) to find the main frequency area that the tom acts in should help you if you can't get the bleed out of the mix. Sometimes this could result in the attack being cut off so using more look ahead should fix that problem (pretty sure the look ahead makes it open before the signal actually gets to the threshold - SONAR should automatically adjust for the latency caused by this).

    Now set the hold so it lasts for about the main attack of the tom. By now you should start listening in the mix. Adjust it relative to the tempo of the song so the power of it holds open for a nice feel with the tempo. I often use something around 20-40ms.

    Now set the release as fast as is natural with depth set to -infinity. Play with it so it fades out in the mix in time with the tempo. If it just won't sound natural, try raising the depth up to -15 and keep going to till you get a natural sound but in time with the song (while also playing with the release).

    Also don't look at the green light, use your ears. Often when I find it is gating how I want it to sound, the green light never comes on, only the orange light does, meaning the gate is only partially open. The truth is that if there is some hold on it, the gate should actually be fully open at same stage, letting that attack through.

    Also try rolling off the lows as much as possible to get rid of the rumble. Make sure you do that same on your room and overhead mics as they often seem to have a lot of unnecessary mud that you just don't need.

    Hope this is of some help!
    #4
    Dave Modisette
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 07:56:58 (permalink)
    Keep in mind that a bad sound drum will also show up in the rest of the mics. You might have to gate adjacent drums as well as the overheads.

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    #5
    krizrox
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 09:40:47 (permalink)
    Gating toms is always problematic especially if there is a lot of cymbal bleed in the track. What ends up happening is that you get this funny sounding "whoosh" sound when the gate opens and closes and that can cause a problem in the final mix. It depends of course on the drummer and how the kit is set up. Inevitably, I've always gotten better results when I rolled up my sleeves and went in there and slip-edited the tom tracks to isolate just the actual hits and used my own fade curves to determine when the sound comes in and when it goes out. Also, I'll resample the toms if there is too much cymbal bleed to reduce that mixing problem. I'll have the drummer hit each drum at the end of the session so I have just the sounds of the toms/snare, etc to use for this purpose.

    In terms of how to dial-in your gate, you didn't specify what gate. Usually there are only a few options so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. The problem with dialing in a gate is trying to find the magic setting that works across the entire track which is sometimes impossible. Light taps on the drum require a different setting than with louder, more forceful hits. This is another reason why I tend to prefer just going in there and editing away anything that is not an actual drum hit.

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    DW_Mike
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 10:07:29 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: krizrox

    Gating toms is always problematic especially if there is a lot of cymbal bleed in the track. What ends up happening is that you get this funny sounding "whoosh" sound when the gate opens and closes and that can cause a problem in the final mix. It depends of course on the drummer and how the kit is set up. Inevitably, I've always gotten better results when I rolled up my sleeves and went in there and slip-edited the tom tracks to isolate just the actual hits and used my own fade curves to determine when the sound comes in and when it goes out. Also, I'll resample the toms if there is too much cymbal bleed to reduce that mixing problem. I'll have the drummer hit each drum at the end of the session so I have just the sounds of the toms/snare, etc to use for this purpose.



    I agree with this. Unless it's a heaver style of music I usually don't bother with gates. Things like Jazz and Blues can be a little tricky so I end up doing it like Larry.

    Mike

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    #7
    skullsession
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 10:24:54 (permalink)
    I record live drums on a very regular basis, with many different drummers as well.

    I agree with those that feel that slip editing is the best way to ensure that you are getting exactly what you want in your case. Gates will get you close, but never perfect. I'm sure the decay and buzz of the drum is all relative to how hard the drummer struck each time....so manually is your best option. Takes time....but you only gotta do it once!!

    Good luck!

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    #8
    bilbosblues
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 10:27:54 (permalink)
    some great ideas here guys
    I ended up deleting that floor tom clip as it was just so problematic
    and have plenty of it on the other tom mic anyhow

    but thanks many, as I do need to study gate

    Matt when you say you use BFD on your drums, is that another sound program? not sure that symbol

    Mark, gotta have the real drums amigo as it is his exciting solo release; will post more, perhaps Sunday after Chelsea takes.....
    #9
    bilbosblues
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 10:29:32 (permalink)
    ps- Beagle made a great point about the tom head and rattle, with individual drums of that size
    has anyone put a pillow in the tom or have any other tricks, the low tamber also might be too much for the mini condensor we clipped to the edge
    #10
    DW_Mike
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 11:09:52 (permalink)
    There are a lot of ways to "muffle" the drums. You could try different heads like REMO pinstripes or there are other brands that make hydraulic heads. There is also a product called ZeroRing. And then there's always the good 'ol reliable duct tape. But by all means never, I mean never put a pillow in the toms. Your drummer wont like it one bit.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention Moongels.

    Mike
    post edited by chefmike8888 - 2008/05/09 11:10:42

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    #11
    bilbosblues
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/09 11:19:55 (permalink)
    UPDATE 11:00 AM EST OH MERCY


    I went over to Sean's kit to explore a bit, took one of my sticks and hit the floor tom, doom bzzz doom bzzzz
    same on the other floor tom

    then onto the small tom, doom doom

    back to the floor toms AFTER SEPERATING THEM AN INCH...

    doom doom buzz gone!

    I get dunce award, Beagle and Mike star of the day
    #12
    krizrox
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/12 11:43:21 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: bilbosblues

    ps- Beagle made a great point about the tom head and rattle, with individual drums of that size
    has anyone put a pillow in the tom or have any other tricks, the low tamber also might be too much for the mini condensor we clipped to the edge


    I've seen all manner of tricks. My own personal tricks are to use a soldering iron with a round tip and melt holes in the bottom heads. You just poke the iron through the head at intervals between the lugs (near the rim). You only need a few. That makes a big difference. Because now some of the air has a place to escape which reduces the ringing. Duct tape is a favorite. Small strips strategically placed. Those gel globules work. A few cotton balls placed inside each tom works wonders. Tuning, of course, is important. The type of heads.

    A rattle is usually a sign of something else though. The lugs might not be tight. Tuning not even across the head. Drummers aren't always picky enough about where drums are positioned and sometimes the drums will knock into other drums or stands or whatever.

    I use a small pillow in the kick but never in a tom. That seems like overkill to me. Some condensers are not made for close-miking drums (my Oktava MK12's come to mind). Make sure the mics will handle loud transients. Some are not so forgiving.

    Larry Kriz
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    #13
    bilbosblues
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/12 12:44:15 (permalink)
    thank you Larry

    I think I determined also that these neat little Audix work fine on the smaller toms, but the larger transients are too much for them in a sense

    I will tell Sean about your soldering iron trick, interesting
    #14
    krizrox
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/12 13:10:27 (permalink)
    Yeah drum miking. It's a peculiar beast that's for sure. It seems you are battling all sorts of problems - not the least of which is the robustness of the mic itself. My personal experience with those little clip on mics has not been good. Not because they don't sound good but because they tend to be frail. But arguably I haven't used one in a long time. Maybe the quality has improved over the years. There have been plenty of times I wished I had a few clip-on mics. Trying to sneak a mic in through the proverbial jungle of stands can be a hassle sometimes.

    Larry Kriz
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    mattplaysguitar
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/12 16:43:50 (permalink)

    Matt when you say you use BFD on your drums, is that another sound program? not sure that symbol


    BFD is a drum sampling program. It uses SAMPLES of drums, not 'real' drums. It has a library of many nice sounding kits recorded by experts with no limit to their budget. You get pretty much no phasing issues with it or buzzing from poor setup etc. The idea is to make it as realistic as possible because one snare for example has bleed from the kick mic, overheads, rooms, PZM etc. The drums are entirely unprocessed so sometimes the toms still do ring out a lot and need to be tamed. Much less trouble than dealing with a real kit but the sounds are amazing if you play with them right. Still, gets tricky to get a natural feel unless you have a midi drum kit or a massive amount of patience with a mouse. I have to rely on the second option... A real drum kit would be so much easier to lay down some quick, realistic beats with nice variation though... Oh how I wait for that day...
    #16
    bilbosblues
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    RE: gate technique on floor toms 2008/05/12 17:41:54 (permalink)
    thanks for that Matt

    I'd send you a kit if we had an extra one
    real drums, nothin' like 'em

    look forward to sharing Sean's final cd with you cool cats
    it is due out in September; further, he may have just scored a Mapex sponsorship
    post edited by bilbosblues - 2008/05/12 18:01:25
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