Recording acoustic guitars: Which is the lesser of two evils?

I do some film scoring work on a semi-pro level. I'm currently scoring a movie where an acoustic guitar is to be the "main" instrument. Up to this point I've been a MIDI guy, so my mic/pre-amp/interface setup has been pretty crappy. A Behringer B-1 into a studio projects VTB-1 into a cheap M-audio interface. I do have a very nice acoustic though.

I've recently had the opportunity to play around with a ZOOM H4 with some impressive results. Maybe it's just the first time I've heard my acoustic in actual stereo but it seems pretty slick overall. I have no real money to invest so my choices are to continue with my current setup and have subpar mono acoustic recordings, or to sell everything off, spend a little money and get a ZOOM H4 and use it for everything (mic/pre-amp/interface) and get subpar stereo recordings.

The fact that the H4 is so portable and can be used as a 4-track (which could come in handy, I guess) is making me lean that way. Any thoughts?

By the way, my recording environment is less than ideal if that makes a difference. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks.

ORIGINAL: lhansen

Monkey - I use 2 seperate mics when recording my acoustic (Taylor 414ce). I too, have a small room with very little acoustic treatment.

If you get a chance, listen to some of my tunes and see if the acoustic sound does anything for you. If it does, I'll gladly go into a bit more detail on what I'm using..

I used to have a small edirol R-09 hand-held recorder, but the sound quality was not that good if you're looking for 'professional' recordings.

Am I looking for "professional" results? Well, as professional as it can be, I suppose. The mere fact that I'm posting this question shows that I have absolutely no budget for this film so "professional" will have to be a relative term. Regardless of what I use for recording the acoustic, it will not be a professional job. Still, as the thread title suggests, I'd like to pick the least offensive solution.
Larry, I listened to your tunes, and they are wonderful! Actually, in many ways they are similar to the vibe I'm going for, although in my case, with a slight hint of darkness. I would definately like to know more about your setup. A Taylor 414ce is a good start, no doubt about that! I sell acoustic guitars for a living so I know about instruments but not much about recording them on a budget. Put it this way, I rarely go into the microphone department.
I guess what I'm asking in a way is if it's better to record a "mono" instrument such as a guitar with two microphones versus one, if my recording environment is less than ideal.

ORIGINAL: bilbosblues

Mr Stibor I presume...

did you see the other thread in this room on acoustic pre amps, has some spirited talk on this

not a fan of the H4 or any of that ilk

what type of instrument do you possess? any onboard electronics?

It is I.

I have not seen that thread but I'll check it out. I have a relatively high end OM style guitar with Adirondack spruce top and mahogany back and sides. I have no onboard electronics or anything like that. I know that an H4 isn't anyone's go-to acoustic guitar recording setup but basically the question isn't what I should use, but what I can get away with.

I certainly wouldn't want to try to use an H4 for "semi-pro film scoring." I'd want to use 2 condensor mics, probably one LD and one SD even into your cheap VTB and cheap m-audio interface before using the H4 for the same thing. but even if you have no budget availalbe, I'd still use the B-1, VTB and M-audio over the H4 for this purpose.

just my 2cents

One person's opinion...

The H2 and H4, and many of their cousins are really quite remarkable. My personal favorite (in the sub $1K class) is the MicroTrak.

But none of them are a replacement for a suitable recording chain!!!!!

Technology is wonderful, and it has brought unimaginable value to this marketplace.

It's just not the best (again, just my opinion) solution if you really care about the sound quality of the finished product.

And I need to make an assumption here... the opportunity of which you speak, is it a paying gig? If it is I think you have two choices:
1) rent the gear you need to create a KILLER soundtrack out of the proceeds from the project, and get more work so that you can ultimately buy the rig you need
2) figure out a way to buy the rig you need.

If you know that you'll be getting more work like this (or you think it a strong possibility) then the second option is probably the better financial solution, but that doesn't mean it's actually possible. I know, I'm in the same boat.

Specific recommendations to record an acoustic guitar in a room that is not ideal for such purposes -

A) you can not beat the Schoeps CMC6 with their MK41 hypercardiod capsule. That's about as honest a microphone as exists today, and it will ignore the room.
B) Mercenary Audio has recently released their SM69, which is supposed to sound like a KM-84, only better. I don't know what that means, but it's on my short list of microphones to audition this season. And they will let you audition it.
C) Josephson has a wide variety of microphones that could be well suited to your present endeavor.
D) I've had tremendous success with most of the Earthworks cardiod microphones - really can't think of one I did not like. They are not in the same league as the others, but they don't carry the same price tag either.
E) If you can live with very close placement of a small capsule microphone you might want to hunt for an Audio Technical AT-4031. It's a great sounding microphone, but it is noisier than any of the above.

These are all small capsule condenser microphones, and that may not be the exact sound you are looking for. If you want to pair one of the above with a large capsule condenser the only two I'd recommend are the Neuman TLM-193 or the Shure KSM-xx. They sound different, but both are capable of providing a huge pallette of sounds depending on placement.

There are a lot more choices for the preamplifier. I'd opt for something neutral, and let the microphone selection and placement play the larger role in the final sound, but that's me again. I love the Millenia Media preamplifiers, and I get remarkable results with the humble Presonus MP-20. If I had the bucks I'd have at least two of the Grace preamplifiers in the rack too! There are tons of others, and all can be rented.

That leaves the A/D converter (and I suppose the D/A, but you didn't ask about that<G>). Stick with two channels and buy or rent the best one you can. Prism, Lavry, Benchmark Media (a real sleeper), and others all make really good two channel A/D converters.

Hope this helps...

Bill

ORIGINAL: Monkey23

I do some film scoring work on a semi-pro level. I'm currently scoring a movie where an acoustic guitar is to be the "main" instrument. Up to this point I've been a MIDI guy, so my mic/pre-amp/interface setup has been pretty crappy. A Behringer B-1 into a studio projects VTB-1 into a cheap M-audio interface. I do have a very nice acoustic though.

I've recently had the opportunity to play around with a ZOOM H4 with some impressive results. Maybe it's just the first time I've heard my acoustic in actual stereo but it seems pretty slick overall. I have no real money to invest so my choices are to continue with my current setup and have subpar mono acoustic recordings, or to sell everything off, spend a little money and get a ZOOM H4 and use it for everything (mic/pre-amp/interface) and get subpar stereo recordings.

The fact that the H4 is so portable and can be used as a 4-track (which could come in handy, I guess) is making me lean that way. Any thoughts?

By the way, my recording environment is less than ideal if that makes a difference. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks.

I think you also want to check out Jeff van Dycke's soundtrack for Medieval II TW - it's loaded with brooding dark plucked stuff:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hjL9OicflRg&feature=related

I could send you a few outtakes from the game itself, esp from the britannia campaign. That could give you some pointers too as to how to embed it, which I find not the easiest.

ORIGINAL: Limelight
Part with the $ get a BLUE baby bottle

Interesting choice!

I have the Baby Bottle and the Dragonfly, and thus far I've loved the Dragonfly on all my guitars, but I've never found a use for the Baby Bottle. I did use it quite successfully on an upright bass (an old, plywood one that sounded OK at best in the room), and on an inexpensive maple Mandolin that otherwise sounds a bit harsh. I tried in on a banjo once, and well, let's just say it was fodder for a whole lot of new banjo jokes<G>! The Dragonfly, on the other hand, handled all of those instruments with grace.

How do you use the Baby Bottle to record an acoustic guitar? Where do you place it, do you process the signal?

Thanks!

My signal path is not cheap, and I'm still learning how to use it, but I use two Mojave MA-100s (tube condensors) one at the 12th fret, one off the bridge, 1 through a UA 610 Signiture, and the other through an Avalon 737. Then the internal mic (LR Baggs straight in to the Fireface) and record 3 tracks at a time, pan/compress/eq them slightly differently. Like I said, still learning, but I like the acoustic sound I got on my last recording "Take my love" www.soundclick.com/rockinrobby The more I learn, the more I learn that I need to learn more... But I'm pretty sure if you're going for a pro sound, you'll need;

1. Good guitar (I have a Goodall Jumbo)

2. Good mics (the MA-100s are "sweet")

3. Good pre's (the 610 and 747 are awesome)

Then it's technique, plugs, recording and mixing magic, etc... Still working on that. A lot of folks here get a very nice sound, check out some of the posters here. Good luck.