Cromberger
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Checking Mix In Mono
Hi, all,
I finally got around to listening to my recent mix in mono (I know, I know, I should have been doing this all along but, jeez, my brain was overtaxed just trying to mix, let alone thinking of checking in mono. I'll do it more often next mix, I promise. ;>) ).
I discovered that I'm not hearing any obvious phasing/comb filtering, etc. (which I assume is a good thing), but there are certain instruments that pop out of the mix way louder than in my stereo mix. I'm not really sure what the implications of this are, and I have no idea what to do about it if this is a terrible thing. The mix sounds pretty good on all systems I've tried it on (in stereo) but it's out of whack in mono, in terms of instrument balance.
My question is, what should one be looking for when listening in mono and how would one correct problems in the mono sound if the stereo mix sounds good by itself? Should I go back and correct levels based on listening in mono? Should I be shooting for some sort of "happy medium" between the two mixes? All advice/wisdom/tips are very welcome.
Thanks!
Best regards to all,
Bill
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Rbh
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/11 23:09:38
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You don't have to notice a " phased " or filtered type of sound to be out of phase, they can just be additive or cancelling out which would lead to gain changes. I'd go for a happy medium approach first before messing too much with a nice stereo mix.
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oldsneakers
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/12 12:04:07
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I've read that you basically try to minimize the damage in the mono mix. You're not going to get it right. I pointed out similar problems in some of my stuff to a mastering engineer and he said don't worry about it. He rarely even checked the mono mix. I guess mono is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
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SteveStrummerUK
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/12 19:10:18
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Not quite the same but I picked up a good tip way back for checking mix levels - go into an adjacent room to where the mix is playing [leaving the door open but stand where you're not in a direct line of sight of either monitor] and listen there.
Apparently, mixing engineers still employ this trick in their multi-million pound equipped studios!
I've no idea why it works, but as a rough guide, it's never far off.
Steve
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bitflipper
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/12 19:50:42
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oldsneakers is right: it's pretty much impossible to make a mix that sounds good in both stereo and mono, so all you can really do is make sure it doesn't sound awful in mono.
What can make mono sound dreadful are cancellations due to phase issues. For example, consider a cloned track that's out of phase with its clone. They might sound fine in stereo (especially on headphones, which will never reveal this problem) but those same tracks might totally disappear in mono, or at least get really thin-sounding due to comb filtering.
You might wonder why you'd bother testing mono, if it's unlikely your song will ever find its way onto TV or AM radio. There's a good reason: stereo playback sometimes emulates mono (when there is no clear left-right separation), and when it does it will suffer the same issues as mono, such as disappearing tracks.
This is why the trick Steve described above works: from outside the room, you're essentially hearing a mono mix out there.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Cromberger
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/12 21:08:32
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ORIGINAL: Rbh
You don't have to notice a " phased " or filtered type of sound to be out of phase, they can just be additive or cancelling out which would lead to gain changes. I'd go for a happy medium approach first before messing too much with a nice stereo mix.
Hi, Rbh, That's what I was thinking, too. It seems that some of the freq's in my stereo mix are, indeed, sounding louder due to additve phase considerations. I wasn't sure if I'd be hearing obvious comb filtering, or not, but you've given me the answer for that. I guess I'm just going to leave my stereo mix alone, since it's *extremely* unlikely to ever be played on a mono system like AM radio, an old TV set, or the like. Best regards, Bill
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Cromberger
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/12 21:12:03
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ORIGINAL: oldsneakers
I've read that you basically try to minimize the damage in the mono mix. You're not going to get it right. I pointed out similar problems in some of my stuff to a mastering engineer and he said don't worry about it. He rarely even checked the mono mix. I guess mono is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
Hi, oldsneakers, I agree that mono seems to be well on it's way out. It's interesting that a mastering engineer seems to think the same thing. And that's good news to me, since I really don't know how to make my stereo mix sound good in mono, short of doing a whole new mono mix. Ain't gonna happen.... ;>) Best regards, Bill
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Cromberger
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/12 21:17:26
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ORIGINAL: SteveStrummerUK
Not quite the same but I picked up a good tip way back for checking mix levels - go into an adjacent room to where the mix is playing [leaving the door open but stand where you're not in a direct line of sight of either monitor] and listen there.
Apparently, mixing engineers still employ this trick in their multi-million pound equipped studios!
I've no idea why it works, but as a rough guide, it's never far off.
Steve
Hi, Steve, I did, indeed, regularly check my stereo mix from two adjacent rooms. I learned this trick from an engineer many years ago when I was a player, not an aspiring recordist. And, I'm happy to say, my mix sounds very good from the next room(s), maybe even better in some respects, than it does right in front of my monitors. There's still plenty of things that could use tweaking in my mix, I'm sure, but I'm glad to hear I'm on the right track as far as checking it goes. ;>) Best regards, Bill
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Cromberger
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/12 21:20:59
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
oldsneakers is right: it's pretty much impossible to make a mix that sounds good in both stereo and mono, so all you can really do is make sure it doesn't sound awful in mono.
What can make mono sound dreadful are cancellations due to phase issues. For example, consider a cloned track that's out of phase with its clone. They might sound fine in stereo (especially on headphones, which will never reveal this problem) but those same tracks might totally disappear in mono, or at least get really thin-sounding due to comb filtering.
You might wonder why you'd bother testing mono, if it's unlikely your song will ever find its way onto TV or AM radio. There's a good reason: stereo playback sometimes emulates mono (when there is no clear left-right separation), and when it does it will suffer the same issues as mono, such as disappearing tracks.
This is why the trick Steve described above works: from outside the room, you're essentially hearing a mono mix out there.
Hi, Dave, Thanks for elucidating the reasons for checking in mono or via the next room. Makes sense, actually. I really wasn't sure why, in light of today's almost universally stereo world, I'd need to check my mix mono. But, a lot of people say to do so, so I just went with the flow, as it were...... Ignorance is not always bliss, it seems. ;>) Best regards, Bill
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ru
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/13 01:02:16
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what does it mean when something in a stereo mix sounds louder from a position flanking one of the monitors than from a normal, center location?
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Cromberger
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/14 01:08:30
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ORIGINAL: ru
what does it mean when something in a stereo mix sounds louder from a position flanking one of the monitors than from a normal, center location?
Hi, ru, Well, I'm absolutely *not* an expert by any means on mixing, but I'd guess that it has to do with the way frequencies work in a directional manner. Meaning that high freq's are quite directional and low freq's are basically non-directional. So, when you move from in between your monitors, certain freq's are going to be louder than others. And, the fact that you have moved to a different position in the room, itself, would seem to me to be a large part of this phenomenon. The way a particular room adds/subtracts freq's due to modes, etc., probably has something to do with this. This is pure conjecture on my part---I'm definitely not an acoustician. Fact is, you'd probably get a much more accurate answer from someone like bitflipper, who knows a lot more about these things than I do. Best regards, Bill
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apell
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/15 03:22:03
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I too do the "check the mix in the hallway" thing it works very well. I also have mono button on my mixer which is very handy. The main thing in mono is to check that you can hear the main elements of the mix such as the melody/vocals, main drums (e.g. kick snare and bass. Everything else is really window dressing in a mono mix to me!
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DaveClark
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/15 08:39:48
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Hi ru, ORIGINAL: ru
what does it mean when something in a stereo mix sounds louder from a position flanking one of the monitors than from a normal, center location?
A lot of things could cause this, but one of the more likely things to consider is that there may not be enough absorption for the size of the room. In a mixing room you don't really want to have a lot of peaks and valleys in the sound spectrum, NOR do you want to have extreme variations as you move about the room. Extreme variations as you move about suggests that you do have other serious problems in that room that should probably be addressed if you intend to use that room for mixing. You could also move your sitting position to try to find a better one. (Listen for frequency effects as well as for volume effects, for example to what happens to the sound of snares?) I personally would not sit in the center left-to-right nor front-to-back. If the room is really small, you might as well just deaden it rather than make bad mixing decisions; then it also matters less where you sit. Just keep in mind that you might tend to add too much reverb while mixing in a dead room. Reverbs add, so consider the effect of the actual listening room(s). Although small rooms are bad, many of us have to work in them so have had to determine how to optimize them. I always double-check things in a different room, much larger and much more live, and on a completely different system. Although I am sometimes surprised by the differences, I can always get into the ball park. Hope this helps.... Regards, Dave Clark
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bitflipper
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/15 10:24:34
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what does it mean when something in a stereo mix sounds louder from a position flanking one of the monitors than from a normal, center location? While that could indicate a phase problem, it's much more likely that it's a symptom of room modes or comb filtering. If it's a low frequency, suspect the former; if mids or highs, suspect the latter. When you have comb filtering, just moving your head an inch or two can dramatically change the level of a narrow band of frequencies, changing the perception of the mix.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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DaveClark
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/15 10:32:41
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
...a symptom of room modes... Yes; in case it was not clear --- and it very well may not be --- this is what increasing the absorption would alleviate. Regards, Dave Clark
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krizrox
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RE: Checking Mix In Mono
2008/05/15 14:13:18
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ORIGINAL: bitflipper
oldsneakers is right: it's pretty much impossible to make a mix that sounds good in both stereo and mono, so all you can really do is make sure it doesn't sound awful in mono.
What can make mono sound dreadful are cancellations due to phase issues. For example, consider a cloned track that's out of phase with its clone. They might sound fine in stereo (especially on headphones, which will never reveal this problem) but those same tracks might totally disappear in mono, or at least get really thin-sounding due to comb filtering.
You might wonder why you'd bother testing mono, if it's unlikely your song will ever find its way onto TV or AM radio. There's a good reason: stereo playback sometimes emulates mono (when there is no clear left-right separation), and when it does it will suffer the same issues as mono, such as disappearing tracks.
This is why the trick Steve described above works: from outside the room, you're essentially hearing a mono mix out there.
Agreed. I did some mixing for some goth/dance clients a couple of years ago and was dismayed to find out the vocals disappeared completely at the dance club (where everything is summed to mono). They had recorded and mixed the music at another studio and positioned vocal tracks hard left and right and when they were summed to mono, literally disappeared like magic. It was the perfect example of a vocal eliminator I had ever seen.
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