How much is music worth?

Be careful with posts like this. A few years back members of a forum got investigated for price fixing.

Talk about options in the proceeds of the movie. I would always prefer a royalty over a flat fee.

ORIGINAL: ba_midi

It is not price fixing to discuss a "fee" for services, btw. There are no set fees or statutory fees for the creative process.

The forum we were posting on was about web design and fee's that we charge clients. I am only concerned and not laying down the law :)

There are no royalties paid for film score, unless of course, you release a soundtrack cd and this is for theatrical releases.

When it plays on TV (network, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX (partial), then you would get monies for the air-play.

As it stands now, there is a movement to get this back (royalties for theatrical releses) in the United States.

Each project is different, but don't sell yourself short. For some reasons, producers always think the music should be free, both score and licensing (songs, cues).

A standard library cue can cost $2000.00 per instance, or $1000.00 per instance for festival rights (i.e. non major theatrical release) and any infraction therof, can cost the production company up to $100,000.00 per violation. So make sure you mention about library cues costing some dollars.

Then suggest about $100-$200 an hours worth of work. $1600.00 per day is fair for both parties. Of course, this depends on how good your are, your relationship with them, etc, etc. Keep in mind, it's not really "their" pocket that this comes from. It's from the budget which in turn is those who have invested. Music can make or break a scence more often than not. Sometimes though, silence is required.

If it's for a TV AD spot, and your creating sound design too (but no editing and voiceovers are done) you can command $20,000 to $50,000 for a .30 second spot (Nike, Nissan, Gatoraid) etc.


Hope this helps.

I think you gave him _very_ good advice.

If you create the music for a TV Ad, do you typically retain the rights to the music? Or is there no "typical" situation in this kind of deal?

i like this advice to.

only recently i have found my self working (for free) for a local artist providing some soundscapes for an art exibition.

now the same guy wants to use my stuff for a video he's doing in collaboration with one of the makers of the triplets of bellville...(name drop) , and he's willing to pay (although not finalised I don,t think it will be much, but i'm just stoked to get the publicity and would have done it for free, but he offered!? )

however this guy got a grant a few years back for $25000 cdn to padlock a bike to a railing out side a police station with around 100 d-locks . it cost $5000......go figure

and maybe it artistic karma or the music gods are happy with me but i just got a mail today from some one on the other side of the country that wants use one of my tracks in a theatre production

so yep be prepared to work cheap you never know where it might lead

ORIGINAL: JerGoertz

If you create the music for a TV Ad, do you typically retain the rights to the music? Or is there no "typical" situation in this kind of deal?

It all depends really. For example, I worked with a composer who's show is Everybody Loves Raymond, it's quite the norm to pay him weekly, per season, the production company gets 100% publishing, he gets 100% writers share. Then, he gets royalties every time it airs, so yes, there are royalties, (notice in my last post, I said network....ABC, CBS, NBC, some FOX, and now UPN), ASCAP, BMI, SESAC hardly ever collect royalties for cable, and for feature films, what you get up front is all you get. While CBS can use the music as they see fit as they control the publishing, yet every time there is a bumper for the show, he gets air-time royalties.

Here is a typical scenario.
Your doing an ad for a commercial. It's custom, so it's one-of-a-kind.

1) You ask for xx amount of dollars, they say ok, but they have exclusive rights to it, this means, they can do what they want after the fact. This is usally the case for BIG feature films, but you obtain the rights for the soundtrack CD (writer) and they obtain the rights to the publishing, or depending on how big you are, you keep them, but as I mentioned earlier, the pro's know that knowone is ripping them off when they want the publishing, it really works out to a 50/50 split. 100% writer, 100% publisher.

2) most normal is non-exclusive, you do it at a set price, they use it for "their" commercial, you then add it to your library and you retain both publishing and writer share for creating it at a lower price, you can then re-license the cue for someone else. It's still your property, know one, except them, can use it without your permission. But the ad firm will have the rights to use it in their commecial however they see fit.

Now, back to the film question. If your working on a trailer, or a indi film and it never makes it to the networks (non-cable), the producer is feeding on your inexperience for back end monies that may never come. This, of course, is not to be confused with a back-end deal, meaning, if the film generates xxx amount of dollars, you get a portion agreed upon.

If your a no-name, and have some cues laying around, and it's not custom work (the cues are finished), $500-$750 per cue is fine for cable tv, if it's network, go for it, get it out there into the networks and make them want to come to you again.
You can also make deals. $1000.00 for a few cues.

I scored a trailer and got about $9000.00 for two weeks work, and then placed some music in a DVD featurette for $1500.00, but it was easy work ((but that work doesn't always come, so each case is really different)) and worked with a firm that got $50,000 a cut for top spots (ad campaigns) (score and sound design). The trailer was a major film company (Tri-star) the DVD big name comedian but no-name production company. It all depends on where the monies are coming from.

Then of course, comes songs, which is a whole different ballgame. Same as above if it's going to be on the show but NOT on the soundtrack, if it gets onto a released CD soundtrack, then they will ask for both synch and master rights. (you can only wish for this scenario). There are indeed royalties from sales (CD/record company) and air-time when it comes to tv (network again). The standard royalty rate is about 15-17% of the CD sales, less reasonable reservers (times (minus) 25% of all sales), then split/divided by the number of artist's on the soundtrack.

Late, tired, hope I didn't confuse.



So, I guess you have to ask, the most important questions.
1) how much work will it be for you
2) what type of exposure will this create
3) is it a great movie?
4) will they be fair and offer at least xx amount a day?

If your a no-name player, and can get $800-$1000 a day, your not getting screwed, of course, your also not scoring with 200 piece orchestra, and have a budget to work with. However, something else to consider, (then I'll stop for now, I promise), ask him what the budget is for music. Does he expect you to play all the parts? If not, and you where to hire out to union players, they get $150-$200 per hour, but they come in and get the job done in 1-2 hours.

Then there's studio expenses, copying expenses, lunch, materials, ), get the picture? If they are in the business, they know a good deal when they see it, i.e., self contained(one flat rate, out the door) vs hiring a composer and team with expenses.

PS, feel free to send me some work too

ask for twice what you think it's actually worth. If they say ok, you bid way too low. remember that next time. And don't forget to factor in royalties, if you think the thing is ever actually gonna make any money.

Cheers.

A really good tatic and of good taste, is also to ask them what the budget is before you ever drop a number. Sometimes you'll be yeah, ok (but on the inside, jumping up and down), other times, ugggg, and you'll have to weigh in "how much work is this going to involve" and what exposure will I receive.

Wow – I have to thank all those who’ve provided input to this thread. I’ll post a follow up after I meet with the producer this weekend since I sense this could be a valuable learning experience for all.

If I had to guess now I think Cass Anawaty has hit close to the mark – he has no money, I’ll get none but I should do the project anyway. The thing is he needs SO much music – up to 50-60 minutes! At this point my goal is to get at least a few hundred dollars out of the deal.

Later and thanks again
Sky

ORIGINAL: mb

read the book:

"legal aspects of the music industry by shulenberg"

mb

Yeah you know, I was at a local Borders bookstore not too long ago and they had a fairly well-stocked section of books on the music biz. I was kind of surprised to see such a good selection actually. Anyone who is looking to sell songs should really invest in a few good books and read up on the subject for themselves. There are way too many variables involved in these deals - especially for newbies (for example, could this guy cut the film in two and sell them as separate films with your music in both films? Wouldn't you prefer to be paid for both films?). Maybe you might want to consider a percentage deal instead of a flat payment?

If you can't decide based on reading materials or feedback, then simply do some soul searching and decide for yourself what your time and talent is worth. What is the minimum you'd accept based on the situation? It shouldn't have to be any more difficult than that. But educate yourself a bit on the inner workings of the film biz.

One other little tidbit of advice in reference to doing this type of work for free:

Don't do it! It's tempting to give away your hard work, especially when you're first starting out and trying to make a name for yourself. But I will tell you something based on years of experience: you will ultimately get more respect from people if you charge them for your work. The problem is that when people get an open checkbook they don't know when to stop. They will walk all over you. Not because they are jerks, it's just human nature. You might lose some business with an attitude like this but I've found the business you lose probably didn't amount to much anyways. People will drop names and paint a big picture in an effort to amaze you but 9 times out of 10 it's all BS and doesn't amount to anything. I've actually experienced a backlash where I've done pro bono work and the client took the work and I got zero credit. Not even an honorable mention on the CD or website.

ORIGINAL: Sky19

So we
made a deal at that fee – while I would retain the
rights to the music after words…

I hope it doesn't come to that!

(afterwards)