Putting the DAW in another room

Author
Dave Modisette
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 11050
  • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
  • Location: Brandon, Florida
  • Status: offline
2008/05/19 10:06:00 (permalink)

Putting the DAW in another room

I've got a rack mount computer case that sits just about knee level to the right of me. I thought about an iso cabinet but those suckers are expensive. I've got a large closet at the rear of my studio that is big enough that heat build up shouldn't be a problem.

I'm going to need to make a cable run to it if I move the DAW. Problem is USB devices and midi devices.

Axiom 49 - USB out
Trackball - USB
QWERTY keyboard - probably PS1 but could be USB
Alphatrak - USB
Transport - USB but is a wireless so that wouldn't matter.

My soundcard is ADAT lightpipe so thats doable with longer cables.

Question is, what about these multiport USB to CAT5 repeaters? Anything that might bite me?

Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

http://www.gatortraks.com 
My music.
... And of course, the Facebook page. 
#1

13 Replies Related Threads

    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/19 14:37:42 (permalink)
    Hi Dave,


    FWIW, You might find it less expensive (and less hassle) to replace the noisy components with quiet units.
    ie: Replace the noisy PS, CPU fan, go with a passive cooled video card, etc.
    You should be able to get the system quiet enough to sit right next to you.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #2
    Jessie Sammler
    Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2111
    • Joined: 2007/07/18 03:06:40
    • Location: Chicagosburgvilletown
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/19 19:00:13 (permalink)
    You might also be able to put the entire computer into a new case. As with certain other key parts that Jim mentioned, there's a wide variation in how much the case contributes to a PC's noise.
    #3
    DaveT
    Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 724
    • Joined: 2003/11/05 18:51:59
    • Location: Oregon
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/19 20:07:10 (permalink)
    I've got a CAT 5 KVM extender on my PC. Did exactly what you're thinking of doing. I think it's a Microcom, but I'll check the name tonight.

    It is a Microcom Mini KVM extender.


    I paid about $150.00 for it. It functions as expected, but I think the video is a bit grainy. My 21" monitor is getting old so that might be the problem.

    Other than the grainy video it works for me. Gets the noise and heat out of my studio which was my goal in the first place.

    DaveT
    post edited by DaveT - 2008/05/19 22:34:22
    #4
    tfbattag
    Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 422
    • Joined: 2006/02/16 13:22:03
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 11:35:39 (permalink)
    Just my two cents, but I used to use a laptop as a dumb terminal and a VNC application named TightVNC to control my machine in another room. The software was free, and it worked fairly well on a 10/100 network. It's probably not optimal, but for tracking with a noisy machine, it worked well.

    Thomas Battaglia
    :wq!
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Intel DP35DP, Q6600, 6GB RAM, Win7Pro x64; RME HDSPe RayDAT; RME ADI8-DS x2, RME ADI-2.
    #5
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 12:30:47 (permalink)
    There are several ways to solve this problem...

    I like Jim's suggestion about using the quietest components, but the reality is that this is simply not practical for some folks for a couple of reasons - (a) you might need to replace everything but the CPU<G>, at which point it becomes expensive and annoying, and (b) depending on the room you are working in, and the arrangement of the gear even the quietest computer can still be too noisy, some microphones are very sensitive. The upside is that the computer is right there, no messing around with extenders.

    The next best solution is a rack that muffles the computer noise. If you get a good one the isolation is remarkable. But they are also remarkably expensive. I saw a demo at AES of a rack that provided over 55 dB of isolation - broadband. They had a speaker in the cabinet playing white noise at 85 dB-SPL (as measured on an Audio Toolbox.) Close the door and the sound pressure level dropped to the same as the ambient noise level of the room (a hotel room, so it was still over 30 dB SPL. All SPL measurements were made flat. It was an impressive demo, but if your ambient noise level in the studio is in the 20s it might not work.

    Which leaves us with the remote solutions.

    If you put your computer in a machine room you need to provide remote keyboard, mouse and monitor support, at a minimum, you may also want to remote the CD burner and/or a removable hard disk.

    Plain old extenders are available for video, PS2, USB2, Firewire, and eSATA. If you have only one computer this is the way to go. Extenders are available from a bunch of companies...

    For video I've used Cables2Go, Minicom, Geffen, and HRT and all have worked flawlessly. They do span the gamut in terms of cost. Depending on distance, and screen resolution you can also use really high quality (read really expensive) video cables. At 1280x1024 I can use a 50 foot cable with no problems. At 100 feet I do feel like the resolution is starting to suffer, but it is not dramatic.

    For USB2 I've used a simple powered hub to go as far as 35 feet - 15 feet to the hub and then 20 feet to the devices (15 foot extenders to the cables attached to the devices.) This includes mice and trackballs, and an ancient Red Rover. Extending my CD burner this far caused problems.

    I never tried to extend Firewire, but I know such devices exist.

    I did try extending eSATA to a remote hard disk and it worked like a charm. I'm going to try an eSATA CD burner next.

    If you are using more than one computer then you need a switch of some sort. Cables2Go has a very cool KVM that also includes a 3 port USB hub. I borrowed an older version (USB1.1) from work and it worked perfectly, allowing me to even share my USB devices. I'm going to replace my ancient KVM switch with the new version, which supports USB2, soon.

    Also, in spite of the published spec I extended my lightpipe 50 feet using plain old plastic lightpipes with no measurable, or audible problems!

    You specifically asked about USB to CAT5... here's the thing, most of the realistically priced CAT5 extenders (video, USB, audio, etc) are simply using the unshielded twisted pairs as, well, twisted pairs. The do a very little bit of signal conditioning, but that's it. They are not encoding the data. At work we regularly extend 1280x1024 video 250 feet using the Minicom extenders. I've tried using CAT5 cable for USB2 (and I'll NEVER put USB connectors on bare cable again!!!) and I had no problem extending it 50 feet. If it weren't so difficult to make the cables I'd experiment more. But given the hassle of building your own I'd probably try one of the commercial extenders.

    If you do use two machines I would also strongly recommend checking out Multiplicity from StarDock. A very cool solution to multiple displays with a single keyboard and mouse!

    The biggest annoyance, for me anyway, of a cabinet or the machine room is the loss of access to the CD burner. You can extend an external CD burner pretty far with USB2 or Firewire, but I ran into problems with both interfaces during my first experiment with a remote computer location. It seems to have settle down and I have a working configuration (USB2) now. Just be aware of the potential for some hassles.

    Anyway, more information the you asked for... too much coffee and too much free time on this end<G>!

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #6
    Cromberger
    Max Output Level: -69 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1057
    • Joined: 2006/08/26 19:44:29
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 20:17:15 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Mod Bod

    I've got a rack mount computer case that sits just about knee level to the right of me. I thought about an iso cabinet but those suckers are expensive. I've got a large closet at the rear of my studio that is big enough that heat build up shouldn't be a problem.

    I'm going to need to make a cable run to it if I move the DAW. Problem is USB devices and midi devices.

    Axiom 49 - USB out
    Trackball - USB
    QWERTY keyboard - probably PS1 but could be USB
    Alphatrak - USB
    Transport - USB but is a wireless so that wouldn't matter.

    My soundcard is ADAT lightpipe so thats doable with longer cables.

    Question is, what about these multiport USB to CAT5 repeaters? Anything that might bite me?



    Hi, Mod Bod,

    Obviously, I don't know what your space situation is but here's how I solved a similar issue to what it sounds like you're having. I built a box out of 3/4" MDF (which my desk top sits on) that accomodates my computer unit. I lined the interior with 2" foam (like Auralex) and put a door, also made of 3/4" MDF (and lined with 2" foam) on the box. Due to heat considerations, I left the back of the box open, but I built a panel that is covered on one face with 2" foam that sits about 2" from the open back of the box. This arrangement has allowed me to keep the noise from my computer down to very reasonable levels. The absorbtive panel at the back of the box really helps keep noise down, while allowing plenty of air into the box to prevent overheating. Disclaimer: I'm not using the most up-to-date, powerful machine, mine is an older P4/3.0GHz machine in an Antec case.

    There is still a slightly audible noise from the computer using this system in my room, but it is a *huge* improvement over what I had before. And, my DVD player/recorder is still right within easy reach, I don't have to use long extension cables for KVM (or DVD) and I can still record with a mic in my space and not pick up any computer noise. Cost: less than $50.

    On the other hand, I used to do just what you are thinking of, meaning I put my computer into a closet and got extensions for KVM, etc.. That worked, too, but turned out, in my case, to be more hassle than it was worth. I'm much happier with my current "box".

    All the above said, next time I upgrade my machine, I'm going to go with a unit that is *quiet* from the get-go and may not even need to be put into a box or a closet........

    Best regards,
    Bill

    Sonar Platinum
    Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
    Studio Cat DAW
    Intel I-950 Processor
    6 Gigs RAM
    M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8R Audio Interface
    Mackie HR824 Monitors
    #7
    Dave Modisette
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11050
    • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
    • Location: Brandon, Florida
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 20:35:54 (permalink)
    Thanks for the reponses guys. I forgot to consider the extenders for my two CRTs. It's looking more and more like quieter components may be the way to go. I wish I could find some DIY plans for an iso cab. I have more than enough equipment and skill to put together something at the same quality as anything on the market until I get to any electronic thermostat control of ventilation fans.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #8
    Russell.Whaley
    Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2755
    • Joined: 2006/03/01 11:53:45
    • Location: Baja Manitoba
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 20:37:29 (permalink)
    Cromberger, I've been debating building a box like you describe. I have about a half-sheet of 1/2" heavy-duty plywood in the garage that I've been eyeing for this project... would this give the same insulative qualities as MDF, or should I spend money on the MDF? On my budget, this is the best option for now.

    Cheers,

    Russ




    #9
    Dave Modisette
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11050
    • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
    • Location: Brandon, Florida
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 20:47:22 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Russell.Whaley

    Cromberger, I've been debating building a box like you describe. I have about a half-sheet of 1/2" heavy-duty plywood in the garage that I've been eyeing for this project... would this give the same insulative qualities as MDF, or should I spend money on the MDF? On my budget, this is the best option for now.

    Cheers,

    Russ
    Plywood vibrates too easy. You want something dense that won't transfer the sound energy inside the box to the outside air and finally to your ears. MDF or particle board would be the best thing to use.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #10
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 21:15:02 (permalink)
    Hi Dave,

    ORIGINAL: Mod Bod
    I wish I could find some DIY plans for an iso cab. I have more than enough equipment and skill to put together something at the same quality as anything on the market until I get to any electronic thermostat control of ventilation fans.


    I can't provide a drawing, but I can provide some of the details you need to build a quite rack enclosure for a computer...

    1) Make it deep... not just deep enough for the computer but add another six inches or so of clear space behind the computer, and maybe one or two inches in front.
    2) Make it tall... you want about 3-4" of space below the bottom most piece of equipment.

    OK, what you want to build is a chimney... you want to suck cool air in at the bottom of the rack and let it exhaust at the top, all without fans of any kind. I don't know for certain that this will work for a single computer, but for three 4U computers and a UPS it works like a charm!

    The space below the bottom most piece of equipment needs to be open to the front of the cabinet, the door start above that space. Cover that space with a vent of some kind, I've seen guys use lovely louvered panels, but I used your basic 4U tall vent panel from Lowell or Middle Atlantic (can't remember who.)

    I also put a replaceable foam filter - the kind you might use for an HVAC system, behind the vent. Depending on the dust quotient in your studio this could be a must, but it can also serve to muffle the air intake - though I doubt you'll get the volume or speed to create a problem.

    You also want to leave some way for the air coming in from the bottom to get to the front of the computers, since those fans want to suck air through the computers. I left the entire thing open, ugly but effective.

    So now you have the fans in the computers sucking, and since you have a solid door (with air space) in front of them the only place they can get air is that vent on the bottom. The heat from the air being pumped into the rear of the cabinet will create the chimney effect, and some air will also be sucked from the bottom to the rear.

    Use a similar panel on the top of the cabinet at the rear for the exhaust. I did not put a filter on that.

    Does this make sense so far?

    You'll want all four sides and the front and rear doors to be pretty solid and massive. Keep in mind that sound isolation is a function of mass and control of air flow. The more massive the cabinet the more difficult it is for the noise inside the cabinet to excite it to the point where it can escape. And by controlling the air flow you determine where any noise that will escape presents itself to the outside world.

    My computers started out pretty quiet, so I did not have to resort to a labyrinth. If your computer is really noisy then you will want to build a labyrinth in the rear of the cabinet. This serves two purposes: first, it slows the air flow, probably not a practical thing in this case, but you can't really get around it, in fact it's problematic without fans! Second, it muffles noise that might be present in that air. You will need to line the labyrinth with something that can absorb sound. There are linings made for HVAC systems, or you can use plain old foam from Auralex or similar.

    There are a couple other things to consider...

    You need gozintas and gozoutas for power, USB, video, etc. I routed everything to the bottom of the rear cabinet, and I picked up a couple of those folding arms you've seen in the back of big, old fashioned computer racks. I did not feel like investing in the side rails for my cases (they were stupidly expensive, and since I wanted plenty of air space anyway I simply build top and bottom guides on the sides that the rack cases slide into and out of. The downside of this arrangement is that you still have to remove the computer entirely to work on it, since those stupid (but necessary) top slides prevent you from removing the top cover! If I do it again (and I probably will) I'll invest in the slide kits!

    Oh yeah, cables... at the rear of the cabinet I created a slot about six inches wide by 2 inches tall. All the cable enter/exit there. This is probably the noisiest spot in the cabinet, and next time I'll either enclose it (labyrinth idea again) or seal the whole with heavy rubber and slit the rubber for the cables.

    Cable management will be very important, if you haven't already guessed. You want to rack up the computer connect the cables, and be done with it. But that never happens in the real world, so organized and bundle the cables and if you don't get the folding arms find some way to control the slack so that you can remove the computer from the front.

    There is a really good paper on heat management at the Middle Atlantic web site... you may want to read that too (get their power and grounding paper while you're at it!)

    I don't know if this was descriptive enough, holler if you have questions...

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #11
    Dave Modisette
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 11050
    • Joined: 2003/11/13 22:12:55
    • Location: Brandon, Florida
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 21:57:28 (permalink)
    I'll try to sit down and draw up some plans on the CAD system this week. I'll post them for comments to see if I've got the correct idea from your post.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #12
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 22:53:09 (permalink)
    Can you also send them to me in AutoCAD 2004 DWG format? Makes it a little easier for me to view them, and maybe make suggestions.

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #13
    Cromberger
    Max Output Level: -69 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1057
    • Joined: 2006/08/26 19:44:29
    • Status: offline
    RE: Putting the DAW in another room 2008/05/24 23:37:59 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Russell.Whaley

    Cromberger, I've been debating building a box like you describe. I have about a half-sheet of 1/2" heavy-duty plywood in the garage that I've been eyeing for this project... would this give the same insulative qualities as MDF, or should I spend money on the MDF? On my budget, this is the best option for now.

    Cheers,

    Russ



    Hi, Russ,

    I agree with Mod Bod that you'd be better off with MDF. MDF is really dense and heavy and will prevent most sound transmission from inside the box. Even 3/4" plywood would be better than 1/2" ply, though.

    That said, if you put some sound absorbing foam or other material inside the box, you'd probably find that you get a pretty good reduction in noise, especially the high freq's, even with your 1/2" plywood. Even better if your plywood is "Baltic Birch" or some other void-free version of plywood. But, the bottom line is, mass is what stops sound, so the more the better.

    In my case, since I left the back of the box open, I could probably have gotten away with something lighter than 3/4" MDF (I happened to have a sheet left over from another project, which is why I chose to use it). Any opening in the box is a route for sound to get out, so with an open back, super-heavy construction probably isn't the biggest consideration. If you decide to leave the back open, be sure to put an absorbant panel behind the box to absorb as much of the escaping sound as possible. It won't be dead silent, but it may be quiet enough for your purposes. I decided that it was more important to have good ventilation than it was to have total silence. And, I didn't feel like getting into a major project like making a "silent box" (OK, I'm basically lazy....).

    For me, the bottom line is that my box works as I need it to. But, as I said in my previous post, my next DAW will be built with silence in mind and as a priority so that a box or a closet aren't required.

    Also, one of my main hobbies is woodworking, so I have all the equipment to build this sort of project already---no extra expense for tools, etc.. That made it a no-brainer for me to try out my box.

    Best regards,
    Bill

    Sonar Platinum
    Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
    Studio Cat DAW
    Intel I-950 Processor
    6 Gigs RAM
    M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8R Audio Interface
    Mackie HR824 Monitors
    #14
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1