Philip
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Guitar Tracks and Buses
Some of your current techniques please. Acoustic and/or electric:
Like Panning, effects, compression. How many tracks, VSTs and such.
Extreme thanks for any of your current feedback, suggestions, pearls.
(Are any of you using Z3ta for your effects?)
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dlogan
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 10:17:26
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Here's something I've done on some acoustic tracks that has seemed to have worked out pretty well. Record the acoustic part twice and record it both DI (it's an electric acoustic) and mic'd so I end up with 4 tracks. I've panned the mic'd parts pretty hard left and hard right (about 80% or so) and have the DI parts panned a closer to center (maybe 30-40% left/right). The room ambiance picked up by the mic seems to be more effective when it's further from center - when its closer to center it seems less distinguishable and sort of just adds to the noise. I EQ'd and compessed them separately and put reverb on the DI tracks only, then ran them through a bus and put a little gentle EQ and compression on the bus to get them all to play well together. This is the technique I used on my newest song "Wide Open" if you want to check it out at www.soundclick.com/steakbone . Problem is I picked up a lot of string squeaks during the bridge chord changes but that is a result of my playing technique and probably a little of mic placement... Dave
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Philip
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 11:25:29
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ORIGINAL: dlogan
Here's something I've done on some acoustic tracks that has seemed to have worked out pretty well. Record the acoustic part twice and record it both DI (it's an electric acoustic) and mic'd so I end up with 4 tracks. I've panned the mic'd parts pretty hard left and hard right (about 80% or so) and have the DI parts panned a closer to center (maybe 30-40% left/right). The room ambiance picked up by the mic seems to be more effective when it's further from center - when its closer to center it seems less distinguishable and sort of just adds to the noise. I EQ'd and compessed them separately and put reverb on the DI tracks only, then ran them through a bus and put a little gentle EQ and compression on the bus to get them all to play well together. This is the technique I used on my newest song "Wide Open" if you want to check it out at www.soundclick.com/steakbone . Problem is I picked up a lot of string squeaks during the bridge chord changes but that is a result of my playing technique and probably a little of mic placement...
Dave
Thanks for this, Dave. This validates what I'm doing a lot. So you're DIing electric acoustic somewhat. I have an aweful lot to learn with S7 and guitar.  I'm currently only using an Ibanez Electric --> Roland Cube dry ( JC-Clean no effects) into my RME fireface and Portico pre-amps for my amateur takes. I've been panning 30-50% on 2/8 of the best takes (similar to your logic). Some of my effects widen the stereo considerably (especially Z3ta effects) so I'm careful not to get too wide. You're room ambiance must be significant (I get a some of that with my vocals ... despite my vocal boothish setups). I envy Reece's (Beagle's) vocal techniques. So you seem to have sort of: 2-Stage-EQing and 2-Stage Compression going on (which seems the best to me at this point).
post edited by Philip - 2008/08/22 11:27:36
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skullsession
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 12:00:58
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Phillip....I record both very heavy distorted electric and acoustic guitars on a regular basis. I treat them both identically.
There are a lot of options on a guitar....since it's a mono instrument, a single mic in front of it will do nicely for most things. Following are some ways I approach guitar....I'm sure your results will vary!
Acoustic Guitars:
I often will pan a single track hard left, and record a second track which is panned hard right. This obviously results in a stereo image of the guitar via two separate performances. The differences in the performances is what creates the stereo image.
Sometimes I'll mic the neck and then mic the body and split those tracks from a single performance hard left and right.....this gives me a decent stereo image as the two mics are also picking up left and right room ambience. I really like this one when I'm going for a natural acoustic sound within a dense mix.
Sometimes I'll mic the acoustic as well as running it through an amp with a mic on it, or using a DI as well. You can blend the two to your taste.
Electric Guitars:
Again...very often I use two mono performances panned hard left and hard right to create a big stereo image.
Usually, if I want to place the electric guitar somewhere in the "middle" of the stereo field, I'll go to a stereo miking placement.....I pan the mics hard left and right, and I move the mics so that the guitar sits in the stereo field wher I want it. I'm especially fond of doing this with lead guitar. Using this technique along with two mono/hard panned rythm tracks really gives a great separation between all of the guitars without having to do crazy panning or eq shelving.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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skullsession
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 12:02:59
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Oh...and the most important thing for me on guitar is to try to get the sound you're after with mic choice and placement. When it comes time to mix, and I have to do more than high-pass a guitar track, I feel like I've failed!! 
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Philip
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 12:49:53
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Thank you James. I know you've generously spoken of your techniques in the past (which I forgot  ) and also addressed Dave's issue of stereo room ambiance with acoustic guitar. Electric Guitars:
Again...very often I use two mono performances panned hard left and hard right to create a big stereo image. Thank you for validating that. Usually, if I want to place the electric guitar somewhere in the "middle" of the stereo field, I'll go to a stereo miking placement.....I pan the mics hard left and right, and I move the mics so that the guitar sits in the stereo field wher I want it. James, I'm not confident recording electric with mics, at all. Please elaborate on how oft you do this.
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mcourter
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 13:13:42
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ORIGINAL: skullsession
When it comes time to mix, and I have to do more than high-pass a guitar track, I feel like I've failed!!
Dang! Now I feel bad! By that criteria, I fail most of the time. I usually end up having to tweak the EQ at least a little, and I've just learned recently about using a high pass. But I'm not micing an amp, I'm going in with a Toneport. Still, I pan the same way: record mono and pan pretty hard L and R.
A few guitars, a couple of basses, a MIDI controller, a mandolin, a banjo, a mic, PodFarm2 Unbridled Enthusiasm My music: www.Soundclick.com/markcourter
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skullsession
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 13:37:26
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ORIGINAL: Philip
Thank you James. I know you've generously spoken of your techniques in the past (which I forgot) and also addressed Dave's issue of stereo room ambiance with acoustic guitar.
Electric Guitars:
Again...very often I use two mono performances panned hard left and hard right to create a big stereo image.
Thank you for validating that.
Usually, if I want to place the electric guitar somewhere in the "middle" of the stereo field, I'll go to a stereo miking placement.....I pan the mics hard left and right, and I move the mics so that the guitar sits in the stereo field wher I want it.
James, I'm not confident recording electric with mics, at all. Please elaborate on how oft you do this.
It's simple, Phillip. The closer to the center (equidistant) of your two mics, the more your guitar will sound like it's in the middle. If you move your mics so that one mic is closer to the amp, and the other is farther away and picking up more of the room, and then you pan each mic hard left/right, you will have a stereo image of the room....but the direct sound will be more present in one side or the other. You may or may not have to flip phase of one of the mics...but if you work at it, you can get a very natural sounding and very wide sound. A good sounding room is important, because you're going to hear it for sure.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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skullsession
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 13:43:40
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ORIGINAL: mcourter
ORIGINAL: skullsession
When it comes time to mix, and I have to do more than high-pass a guitar track, I feel like I've failed!!
Dang! Now I feel bad! By that criteria, I fail most of the time. I usually end up having to tweak the EQ at least a little, and I've just learned recently about using a high pass. But I'm not micing an amp, I'm going in with a Toneport. Still, I pan the same way: record mono and pan pretty hard L and R.
LOL....what I didn't share was how often I "fail". But seriously....it is very often that I don't eq electric guitar parts beyond a HPF unless I'm stacking several sub-melody parts...then I start cutting pretty hard on the parts that aren't out front. Acoustic is usually another story...I often adjust "sparkle" in the mix.... These are just ideas....some of the things I do. But honestly, the most important part is that you have a killer sounding instrument or rig from square 1. It's impossible to save a guitar track with EQ if the original TONE isn't killer to begin with. And, of course, TONE is very subjective as well.....so bring your own grain of salt to this particular conversation. 
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Philip
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 19:10:24
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ORIGINAL: skullsession
ORIGINAL: Philip
Thank you James. I know you've generously spoken of your techniques in the past (which I forgot) and also addressed Dave's issue of stereo room ambiance with acoustic guitar.
Electric Guitars:
Again...very often I use two mono performances panned hard left and hard right to create a big stereo image.
Thank you for validating that.
Usually, if I want to place the electric guitar somewhere in the "middle" of the stereo field, I'll go to a stereo miking placement.....I pan the mics hard left and right, and I move the mics so that the guitar sits in the stereo field wher I want it.
James, I'm not confident recording electric with mics, at all. Please elaborate on how oft you do this.
It's simple, Phillip. The closer to the center (equidistant) of your two mics, the more your guitar will sound like it's in the middle. If you move your mics so that one mic is closer to the amp, and the other is farther away and picking up more of the room, and then you pan each mic hard left/right, you will have a stereo image of the room....but the direct sound will be more present in one side or the other.
You may or may not have to flip phase of one of the mics...but if you work at it, you can get a very natural sounding and very wide sound. A good sounding room is important, because you're going to hear it for sure.
I'm missing something very very bad, James. I hear you saying: "if I want to place the electric guitar somewhere in the "middle" of the stereo field". All my Electric guitars are non-acoustic and require a guitar amp. Is yours an acoustic-electric or something?
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/22 22:41:18
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crossing delay. between 24-90ms depending on whether it's an acoustic (shorter) or electric (longer). the effect goes on the guitar bus itself and not as a send. works nicely. adjust delay times with the mix in mono mode to sort out phase. double-tracking typically works better in mono but this is quick and easy.
one thing that gets overlooked is arrangement. i like to have two guitars doing something different enough to stand out on their own. so maybe a higher guitar part opposite the hat side and then a lower guitar with the hat.
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Marah Mag
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/23 03:31:59
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I like to split arpeggios/picking across two tracks. So instead of playing a full pattern for a chord change, I'll play only every other note, more or less, and let them ring. Then on another track, I'll play the other notes. I pan them as I would double tracked parts.
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skullsession
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/23 13:04:32
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Phillip....when I said Electric, I meant an amped guitar.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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tcaylor
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/23 19:54:46
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ORIGINAL: Marah Mag
I like to split arpeggios/picking across two tracks. So instead of playing a full pattern for a chord change, I'll play only every other note, more or less, and let them ring. Then on another track, I'll play the other notes. I pan them as I would double tracked parts.
MM, I'd like to hear what that sounds like.
Tom My Soundclick Page Sonar Platinum, AMD FX-4100 Quad Core, 8GB RAM, Win 7, RME Fireface USB, UA LA-610, Dynaudio BM 5A monitors, G&L Asat Classic, Peavy Wolfgang, 1990 Strat Ultra, Alvarez PD-80SC Acoustic
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jsykes
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/23 20:59:35
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Hey, this is a great thread. But I'm wondering what a crossing delay is? I've been wondering that for a while. Is that the same as ping pong?
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/23 21:08:18
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a crossing delay is where you take a standard delay and on one side you have no delay at all and on the other you have say 30-90ms or so. as you increase the cross-feed on the non-delayed side you will hear the delay get louder on the delay side. i typically keep the feedback low or off and the mix levels on both sides high although you can mess with it as needed.
it's a fairly common effect for widening guitars although i don't know that it's "in vogue" as much as it used to be. the important thing though is to check in mono to make sure that you aren't getting too much phase (and you always will get some with an effect like this).
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jsykes
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/23 21:14:33
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Jack: Thanks. I've seen that mentioned by so many people that have good mixes, I wanted to research it. Jeff
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Philip
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/23 22:34:16
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Thanks, Jack; guitar is a weak link for me at present (though I've played humdrum for years); I've a friend who is working with me though. Jeff, I think its just a mild delay between 2 channels going into the guitar bus that colors the sound; I've done it with vocals with I think 16-30 msecs if I recall. Some of the VSTs (Reverb, Perfect Space, and others) have options for pre-delay and delay which might also color/enrich acoustic and/or electric. Marah, thats pretty ingenious: I like to split arpeggios/picking across two tracks. So instead of playing a full pattern for a chord change, I'll play only every other note, more or less, and let them ring... Arpeggiation is cool; stereo-widening seperate notes seems super-cool, and/or with splattering-notes ringing from left to right, etc. I might ought to try something similar with piano and synths. Stereo effects (subtle and large) have always captured my wonder.
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BluesMeister
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/25 01:22:32
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There are so many different approaches to this, so I'll throw in a couple of my own:
1) Rhythm guitars: Strat neck PU, Clean Channel
Lead Guitar: Strat Bridge PU, Lead Channel
2) Rhythm guitars: Ibanez Artist Bridge PU, Rhythm Channel
Lead guitar: Ibanez Artist Neck PU, Rhythm Channel
For Rhythm Guitars I always use different chord voicings for L&R and throw in some Sonitus Reverb. Guitars typically panned 35%-50%. Occasionally I'll add some 100% panned L&R additional rhythm guitars to really widen the sound.
For Lead Guitar I will usually use varying amounts of Sonitus Delay. Sometimes I play a second and third lead part as note-perfect as I can manage and pan those to 75% L&R. Another trick I employ is to double the lead parts, both panned to, say, 25% L&R then play harmony for the latter few measures of the break.
I will also mix my guitars for rhythm and lead between my Artist (HumBuckers) and Strat (Single Coils)
I tend to compress rhythm tracks using the Vintage Neve preset in Sonitus. Tracks are ALWAYS recorded as mono tracks, my amp goes into my little Yammie mixer, then to my audio card. I never mic the amp, it has a recording out socket on the back panel that obviates the need for that.
For rhythm guitars I group the tracks so that I can adjust them in the mix by equal amounts. I may have to solo the rhythm parts to ensure that their levels are roughly equal prior to grouping.
I generally record one verse and one chorus of rhythm guitar then copy & paste for the duration of the tune. I add and subtract the additional wide panned extra guitars to add interest throughout.
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fooman
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/25 11:05:49
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I'll add one of the most important things I've found in my experience.
- Get a good guitar and amp!
Seriously. I could choose any mic I own, throw it up on my Marshall JCM2000 w/ a Mesa recto cab and it'll sound nice. I could place it almost anywhere in front of the speaker and get a usable tone. I've done some DI recording, but a real tube rig often yields results that will blow away anything DI can offer. However, I don't own much guitar sim software, so what do I know.
But most of the time I find that people who don't feel good recording amps often have junky rigs.
When I mix, I often place the guitars 80% each side, and if the music is simple I quad-track the guitars. I often will track acoustic guitars DI to place underneath the electrics, or sometimes just do a clean track of rhythm underneath to add some shine.
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FlySig
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/25 16:54:55
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ORIGINAL: tcaylor
ORIGINAL: Marah Mag
I like to split arpeggios/picking across two tracks. So instead of playing a full pattern for a chord change, I'll play only every other note, more or less, and let them ring. Then on another track, I'll play the other notes. I pan them as I would double tracked parts.
MM, I'd like to hear what that sounds like.
Check out the original recording of "Dream On" by Aerosmith. The signature underlying riff is recorded as separate left and right parts split similarly to what Marah does. If you don't pay attention it sounds like one instrument, and in fact it is/was performed by one guitar in concert. But if you listen to the record you will hear it is split hard left and hard right. I do enjoy listening to some of those older albums to listen to the recording techniques. A lot of the time I think that the engineers, musicians, and producers were just winging it and playing around with effects without much planning. But they also managed to create some very full sounding recordings out of some really diverse tracks. The Beatles have a lot of songs that sound really amazing together but when you hear separate tracks it is nearly unbelievable that there isn't more to each part.
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Philip
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/27 17:52:13
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I may have to solo the rhythm parts to ensure that their levels are roughly equal prior to grouping. Frank , I had to re-read your indepth post thrice as I'm still digesting terms and such, Your pearls are invaluable. Thank you very much! Eric, At present I'm recording directly, mono-takes, with only a Roland Cube and various intermediate guitars. The Roland Cube has output-jack and preserves the amp-box effect to my non-discriminating ears. I'm taking your advice to heart; I'm not the chief guitarist and all my inputs are 'clean' (acoustic-like). FlySig, thank you for validating Marah's technique and the LT-RT split by Aerosmith. I don't think I can much improve on the 80's-classics, especially at my aspiring level. (Sorry for my lateness)
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BluesMeister
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/28 01:06:05
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ORIGINAL: Philip
Frank , I had to re-read your indepth post thrice as I'm still digesting terms and such, Your pearls are invaluable. Thank you very much! No worries, Philip, I'm happy to share whatever knowledge I have accumulated. Another point I should have made is ALWAYS keep a recording log. Mine's a simple Excel Spreadsheet that details the name of the tune, date, amp settings and which guitar and PU position I used for rhythm/lead. This makes it so very easy to go back at a later date and re-create the same settings I used if I feel the need to change any guitar parts. It also enables me to recreate specific guitar tones from one tune to another. My Stratocaster is an American Deluxe with the S1 switching, my Yamaha SAS-1500 has coil taps, so between them I can get a huge variety of tones, there's no way I'd remember from one week to the next what settings I'd used were it not for my recording log!
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mixsit
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RE: Guitar Tracks and Buses
2008/08/28 02:47:20
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I had one of those interesting 'happy accidents' tracking acoustic guitar the last few days. We had a pair of the Oktava M-12's at about 4" 12th fret' and body as the primary and a ksm32 out about 36" as an option which I knew was going to be out of phase.
The Shure had a nice enough tone to stand on it's own, but it also turned out to be an effectively filter of the body tones as it was mixed in with the primary pair. I'm using the combined phase effect in a few tunes in place of eq' in the final mix.
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Philip
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