Monkey23
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 848
- Joined: 2007/06/08 11:21:22
- Location: Montreal Canada
- Status: offline
Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
Recently I've been trying my hands at these MIDI based orchestral programs (Miroslav Philharmonik mostly, but Dim pro/garritan pocket orchestra as well). While I've found that most programs can do brass, and woodwinds fairly easily, none of them seem to really nail the string section very well. Not a reflection of the programs mentioned, simply a result of recreating the subtleties of string instruments. In most cases these programs seem to be okay at pizzicato and staccato parts, but I'm having problems with any length of sustained notes. While I'm been using volume envelopes the control the inital attack (with some success), I'm not quite sure of the best way to bring the volume down just in time for the next notes. As well, upon releasing the key, the notes seem to come to a jarring halt. Any tips on making everything a little more fluid in general? Also, is there an orchestral program (ideally under $1000) that seems to "do" strings better than most?
post edited by Monkey23 - 2008/08/21 10:01:12
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 10:49:43
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Monkey23
Recently I've been trying my hands at these MIDI based orchestral programs (Miroslav Philharmonik mostly, but Dim pro/garritan pocket orchestra as well). While I've found that most programs can do brass, and woodwinds fairly easily, none of them seem to really nail the string section very well. Not a reflection of the programs mentioned, simply a result of recreating the subtleties of string instruments.
In most cases these programs seem to be okay at pizzicato and staccato parts, but I'm having problems with any length of sustained notes. While I'm been using volume envelopes the control the inital attack (with some success), I'm not quite sure of the best way to bring the volume down just in time for the next notes. As well, upon releasing the key, the notes seem to come to a jarring halt. Any tips on making everything a little more fluid in general?
Also, is there an orchestral program (ideally under $1000) that seems to "do" strings better than most?
See if any of the string parts will respond to mod wheel. Most synths will. That will vary the tone and vibero as the note plays. Another thing you can do it layer another voice of the some instrument in the background to double the part but have the second one fade in and out in the center not at the attack. That will thicken up the center. Little dab will do ya... you don't want anyone to be able to tell what you did. Convert all the tracks to audio to cover your tracks !!  In fact just bouncing each part to an audio track (one at a time) can make a difference in some cases. It also lets you use audio plugin effects on each one. You can use a delay or chorus with automation to do the thickening thing. Even an automatable EQ or Vibero can work. This also makes your project look like you tracked real strings.
post edited by ohhey - 2008/08/21 10:55:25
|
Mamabear
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8954
- Joined: 2006/12/01 18:03:09
- Location: Missouri
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 11:40:40
(permalink)
I was told about how to use CC 11 to make strings sound more realistic. Hopefully this will help some:
In a midi track (presumably strings or horns--something that needs the help), go to PRV (alt 5).
Click on the 'Use Controller Pane' icon. (mine's app. in the middle. Has a tiny up arrow.)
On the left, above the piano keys, click on the white down arrow to the right of Notes/Vel.
Click on New Value Type...
Under Value, click on 11-Expression (hence the name CC-11, but I can't remember what the C's stand for)
Click OK
Make sure you have the pointer selected (not the arrow)
Now, down in the controller pane, you can draw 'slopes' (for want of a better name) of vertical lines under each note you want to. The lower the line, the lower the volume. In this way, each note won't sound like it's attacked the same--they will sort of slide in, if that makes sense. (you can also change the decay of the notes by lowering those lines.) Experiment with it and see the difference it makes.
You may have noticed under 'value' that there are about 20 values you can change. I haven't looked into any others very much, but now that you know it's there, you can explore them and read about them.
|
mlockett
Max Output Level: -54.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2099
- Joined: 2003/11/07 17:26:14
- Location: Colorado Springs, CO
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 11:42:13
(permalink)
It's hard to use a single articulation and produce anything convincing. You'll probably need to use multiple articulations to make it sound good. I have Miroslav, but find it much easier to use EWSO (and I like the sound better in most cases). EWSO has some patches that allow you to change articulations without changing sample-sets; there will be 5 (more or less) low keys starting at C0, which operate as controllers.When you press one of them, it might set it to a staccato, until you press another of the low keys. EWSO Silver can be found for about $200, if you look/wait for a deal.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 12:08:32
(permalink)
1. Perform each string part separately, using no more than two fingers at a time on the keyboard while recording.
2. Observe the natural ranges of each instruments, e.g. avoid playing a violin-range note on a cello. I saw a CAL script somewhere that checks your MIDI and tells you if there are any notes outside the natural range of a specified instrument. Many samplers manage this for you, so this advice applies more to general-purpose synths.
3. Never quantize string parts.
4. Vary the articulations. The mod wheel is your best friend. Humans cannot make the vibrato identical on every note, even if they wanted to. Two violins playing the same note will not have exactly the same vibrato, either. Most samplers let you switch articulations with MIDI commands, so that one measure (or even one note) can be played staccato in the middle of a legato section.
5. Double-track most string parts, especially violins. A real orchestra may have 20 people playing the same note. The only way you'll get that level of complexity is to overdub as many times as practical.
6. Pan the instruments apart. You don't necessarily have to follow the classical orchestra setup, but no two instruments should emanate from exactly the same place in the panorama. The violin section physically spans 10 feet or so onstage, so the leftmost player's sound is coming from a different angle than the rightmost violinist.
7. Use reverb. Some like to use multiple reverbs to simulate the differences heard from different sections of the orchestra. Personally, I use just one reverb instance and route everything to it via an aux bus. However, I like to vary the amount of send for each section. Usually, that means a little more on the violas, which traditionally sit back farther from the front of the stage, and which usually play more legato-type parts, which are not hurt as much by reverb as say, cello parts.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Middleman
Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4397
- Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
- Location: Orange County, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 12:29:49
(permalink)
I gave up on making virtual strings sound authentic. I went out, bought a violin and learned how to play it. Voila! works great for just backing up the peice.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 12:43:22
(permalink)
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
ohhey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 11676
- Joined: 2003/11/06 16:24:07
- Location: Fort Worth Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 13:14:06
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Middleman
I gave up on making virtual strings sound authentic. I went out, bought a violin and learned how to play it. Voila! works great for just backing up the peice.
That brings up interesting subject. I've noticed that adding just one track of a real performance can make all the other tracks in a section sound believable. I'm sure there is some psychology around this but it seems to work. This also works with drums and standard midi files of songs. It's like when the brain is trying to make the "real or not" decision, if it hears one thing that sounds real it just "assumes" the entire band is real. I've always wanted to try that with drums to see if adding just one real cymbal or hi-hat track would make the entire kit sound like live drums.
|
aaronk
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1275
- Joined: 2005/12/09 16:33:31
- Location: HT&E
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 13:59:48
(permalink)
Garritan's site has some tutorials on making section strings sound more realistic. The tutorials take up a few screens of text so I won't repeat them here. Well worth the time and effort to work through them.
|
mlockett
Max Output Level: -54.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2099
- Joined: 2003/11/07 17:26:14
- Location: Colorado Springs, CO
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 15:51:29
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Middleman
I gave up on making virtual strings sound authentic. I went out, bought a violin and learned how to play it. Voila! works great for just backing up the peice.
I bought a violin also; I've used it to back up "fake" strings, and it sounds nice in that application; however, the violin I bought is much cheaper than the ones sampled in EWSO or Miroslav, and I can't play it nearly as well. For me, it's only practical for highlighting things... so far.
|
bmdaustin
Max Output Level: -68 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1114
- Joined: 2004/01/11 21:56:51
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 18:40:22
(permalink)
In addition to all the above, large string ensembles sound better if you use spread voicings, preferable with at least a 4th or 5th between notes. That will really open up your sound. Keep in mind that an orchestra starts with only five string notes. Allowing for some occasional divisi, you might have up to eight, barring special situations or effects.
As an exercise, play a C chord in your right hand - middle C, E, G, and C. Now revoice it like this - C below middle C (cellos), G below middle C (violas), E above middle C (2nd violins), C an octave above middle C (1st violins). Now add the basses on the low C an octave below the cellos.
In addition to really opening up the sound, you now have plenty of room for movement in the inner parts without stepping on the other notes of the chord.
|
Monkey23
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 848
- Joined: 2007/06/08 11:21:22
- Location: Montreal Canada
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/21 22:36:31
(permalink)
Wow, all such good advice. I have a lot to learn. Thanks to all who took the time to write. Any further tips are welcome.
|
aaronk
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1275
- Joined: 2005/12/09 16:33:31
- Location: HT&E
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/22 13:13:24
(permalink)
Two additional tips --
(1) If your string parts include notes that are longer than the duration of the samples used, you'll usually end up with noticeable artifacts from the sample looping. This can happen all the time when using strings as pads.
In GPO, you'll notice that different string instruments have different library sizes, which in part reflects different maximum note lengths before looping.
When I need a string note longer than the unlooped sample, I usually use a series of notes, none longer than the unlooped sample, and fiddle with the release and attacks until I get something that sounds reasonably similar to a player changing bowing directions on a sustained note.
(2) As I've written many times before -- consider using AAS's Tassman or String Studio. These don't sound like real string instruments, but to my ears they sound MUCH more musical than any samples I've heard. (They sound, to me, like acoustic instruments, just not any acoustic instrument I've heard before.)
|
MelodicJimmy
Max Output Level: -77 dBFS
- Total Posts : 668
- Joined: 2007/10/04 11:04:23
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/24 21:44:33
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: bmdaustin
In addition to all the above, large string ensembles sound better if you use spread voicings, preferable with at least a 4th or 5th between notes. That will really open up your sound. Keep in mind that an orchestra starts with only five string notes. Allowing for some occasional divisi, you might have up to eight, barring special situations or effects.
As an exercise, play a C chord in your right hand - middle C, E, G, and C. Now revoice it like this - C below middle C (cellos), G below middle C (violas), E above middle C (2nd violins), C an octave above middle C (1st violins). Now add the basses on the low C an octave below the cellos.
In addition to really opening up the sound, you now have plenty of room for movement in the inner parts without stepping on the other notes of the chord.
I think your point is very good. Learning how to voice lead is EXTREMELY important when it comes to arranging and is more important than learning about how to mix the instruments properly. The way you voice chords can totally change everything and make it sound better or worse and even make it unnecessary to add more EQ or do other mixing stuff.
post edited by MelodicJimmy - 2008/08/24 22:09:16
|
Marah Mag
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1000
- Joined: 2008/07/12 18:27:12
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/24 22:30:13
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MelodicJimmy
ORIGINAL: bmdaustin
In addition to all the above, large string ensembles sound better if you use spread voicings, preferable with at least a 4th or 5th between notes. That will really open up your sound. Keep in mind that an orchestra starts with only five string notes. Allowing for some occasional divisi, you might have up to eight, barring special situations or effects.
As an exercise, play a C chord in your right hand - middle C, E, G, and C. Now revoice it like this - C below middle C (cellos), G below middle C (violas), E above middle C (2nd violins), C an octave above middle C (1st violins). Now add the basses on the low C an octave below the cellos.
In addition to really opening up the sound, you now have plenty of room for movement in the inner parts without stepping on the other notes of the chord.
I think your point is very good. Learning how to voice lead is EXTREMELY important when it comes to arranging and is more important than learning about how to mix the instruments properly. The way you voice chords can totally change everything and make it sound better or worse and even make it unnecessary to add more EQ or do other mixing stuff.
Voicing is actually a form of "equalization."
|
aaronk
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1275
- Joined: 2005/12/09 16:33:31
- Location: HT&E
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/25 13:15:14
(permalink)
Voicing is actually a form of "equalization." Equalization is what you have to do if you don't voice correctly to begin with . . . 
|
VinylJunkie
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
- Total Posts : 939
- Joined: 2008/07/25 08:40:45
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/27 14:19:18
(permalink)
Garritan's site has some tutorials on making section strings sound more realistic. The tutorials take up a few screens of text so I won't repeat them here. Well worth the time and effort to work through them.
+1. Only had a quick look but a wealth of useful information.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/29 11:12:13
(permalink)
Here's an interesting link on the dynamics of the crescendo in orchestral MIDI.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
aaronk
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1275
- Joined: 2005/12/09 16:33:31
- Location: HT&E
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/29 13:54:49
(permalink)
Nice link. A frequent give-away to my ears of a composer writing wind or string parts on a keyboard is the failure to even think in terms of individual note crescendos. This applies not only to samplers and MIDI but also to old fashioned composers writing for real instruments at a piano.
|
KenJr
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 742
- Joined: 2007/02/18 02:46:52
- Location: Austin, TX
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/29 15:16:37
(permalink)
Run em through some analog processing?
I have a Roland GR-30 that has some decent string sounds...when I run that stereo through my GTQ2 it's on a whole 'nother level.
|
spacey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8769
- Joined: 2004/05/03 18:53:44
- Status: offline
RE: Any tips on making string parts more realistic?
2008/08/29 21:27:02
(permalink)
"The Guide To MIDI Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath.
|