Best Orchestral Library?

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sylva
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/10/03 18:42:33 (permalink)
Hello all.

Since I've written I listened to lots of demos. Unfortunately, I cannot say anything good about high string registers. They all sound like hurdy-gurdies above G6 or so when it comes to ff. Since Ketron's "orchestral" demo (only one on the whole site) is totally unconvincing because the "orchestra" is in fact a smooth jazz band, I cannot pronounce myself. The Big Band demo is quite good in that its instruments sound pretty realistic, except that the bass is not a real double bass but a bass guitar, and the trumpets sound skinny like in high school jazz bands (In the great pro big bands of the past, the trumpets usually have a thick, marcato tenuto sound). These problems make the demo sound "canned".

Until the high string problems met in software instrument packages are not solved, symphony orchestras won't sound convincingly enough, even in EWQL and VSL. Oh yes, software instruments are progressing by leaps and bounds and one day (soon) they will be very realistic. But for now, the "buzz" in their brass and the "hurdy-gurdy" metallic stray effects make them sound synthetic. One one may counter that we only want to mock the symphony orchestra for expedient demos. Probably so, but I am not alone in wanting more than just mocking. I am sure that gradually the soft instruments will progress to a high degree of realism. I experimented with Miroslav's demo for a while. Instruments like the Trumpet and Oboe solo are very very good. However, when I constructed chord progresssions, the trumpets had a strong buzz which spoiled the whole thing. Maybe detuning the offending part in the harmony would improve the sound, so I need much more experimentation.

Here I have the following questions:

1. Has anybody experience with Miroslav? Can one build brass chord progressions without "buzz"?
2. CJaysMusic, in your experience, how is the sound of Violins, Violas and Cellos in their high regiseters on the Ketrons?

For me, the elements and criteria mentioned in the above writing and questions make or break the deal.

Thanks, Sylva.
post edited by sylva - 2008/10/03 19:26:33
#31
jsaras
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/10/03 19:04:29 (permalink)
Your observation about the problems with high string registers is very perceptive and on the mark. EWQL has multiple microphones, but what's the use of a room mic that captured the high strings at forte? I STILL think that the best high strings (and low strings) I've encountered are the old East West Ultimate Strings Collection. I converted the Roland format disk to soundfont. It doesn't have the 2000 different articulations, release tails and legato scripting but I don't care about that stuff as much.

http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com ("one minute free" mastering)

http://tinyurl.com/3n6kj (free Sonar mixing template and Ozone mastering preset)
#32
sylva
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/10/04 22:49:16 (permalink)
Yeah,

But, in reading reviews about the old EW strings package, people seem to like especially the lower registers. So the problem seems to persist. Another problem, this is a strictly strings package. If one is in need for an orchestra, other instrument packages will have to be bought. Well, then here is your $1000+ software project. Running that limited pocket dry.

As far as Miroslav, solo instruments are indeed very good. However, when putting them into chords they buzz, some instruments such as trumpets, quite badly. Seems to me that non-temperate instruments are still a big problem for the present state of art of orchestral software. I am sure this state won't last for long, since real progress has been made at a steady pace. In two-three years most of it will be much better.

Cheers.
#33
Jansi
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/10/12 02:50:54 (permalink)
VSL is the best.
#34
KingdomVibes
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/10/28 17:25:24 (permalink)
I did notice too that some of the string sounds do sound a little 'thin', especially at the higer register, but I also realized that for the most part, they were out of the natural range of the instrument. However, to overcome this, I was able to use the layering feature and layer 3 string voices at the same time with some slightly detuned and at a lower octave. This allowed me to get a rich over-all tone in the instrument, without sacrificing quality. I do wish though that Ketron had also sampled some of the major ORCHESTRAL sounds - like those you would hear if 30 violas where playing ... at the same time!
#35
jpq
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/11/01 17:46:18 (permalink)
What you recommend when i need frech horns without vibrato ? i just learned miroslav has always vibarto in french horns.:( and i heared GPO french horn not very common type sound.:(
post edited by jpq - 2008/11/01 17:55:04
#36
Philip
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/11/03 13:04:41 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: kwgm

East West Symphonic Gold fits your budget, and is the best bank for the buck (pun intended, of course :#)

Hardware-wise, I've always preferred Roland's orchestral samples over Kurz or Yammy, and the SRX cards are another great way to get symphonic sounds for cheap, if you already own the Roland hardware.

I use the Roland SRX-Orchestra in my Roland Fantom X-8 and Juno-G. For 16-bit (vs 24-bit) sound and at my level, I'm extremely happy with these.
SRX orchestral patches are extremely diverse (several hundred).

But, DimPro orchestras contain 'finer' sounds than SRX and may be modified in DimPro's module with effects, before committing to a wave file.
Isn't DimPro starting to take on more 3rd party libraries of late?

The problem with DimPro, is that you really need to freeze/bounce your synth tracks to get a 'heavy' orchestra going. How much more, methinks the other stuff needs to be bounced to wave files.
NI Kontakt $tuff needs to be loaded and takes considerable time (5-20 minutes) and frustration. Crashes are to be expected.

A Roland Juno-G costs about $1000US, a Fantom $2500, and the SRX-6 (orchestra) another $300. This is by far the easiest and most bang-for-the-buck orchestra for aspiring noobs, IMHO. You play the orchestra directly from the keyboard! Wow!

But DimPro is a heavy contender and may give you 90%+ of what you want. DimPro probably suits the mainstream Sonar user for 'best orchestral library'.

Philip  
(Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

Raised-Again 3http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12307501
#37
noldar12
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/11/06 02:58:55 (permalink)
Another thing to consider is that in a quick mock-up all instruments attacks start at the exact same moment. In a real orchestra each player's playing style will be ever so slightly different from everyone else's. In addition, one reason that a "synthy" sound is such a problem is that the samples are based on a section, not the individual players of a section. To truly emulate an orchestra string section, each player would need to be sampled separately, and then a separate midi track would need to be created for each player. It would then be possible to weave indivual instruments within the section, and do edits in a way that at different points, different players within the section would dominate. One can only guess the cost of such a library and the computer power needed to run it.

Curiously, GPO is the one library that allows for that sort of ensemble building on a small scale. With VSL or EWQL, layering say a solo violin/chamber violin section/full orchestra section, offsetting the attacks ever so slightly and other tricks can help with achieving realism. My hope is that when Garritan releases GPO 2/Orchestra Strings 2 the quality of the samples will be much higher, and the ensemble building possibilities greatly expanded.

For a truly high-end strings library, Audio Impressions DVZ Strings is seeking to allow for greater flexibility, but the estimated cost for the library and the computers to run it is around $25,000. Obviously, that library is aimed at a very small maket niche.

Some of the budget library samples I found to be far from adequate. For example, as a strings player, I found the attacks on most of Kirk Hunter's strings to be very over exaggerated, and they ended up reminding me all too much of someone with overall poor technique (except when such hard attacks are desired for a specific reason).

Overall, I would agree that strings are the weakest link in sample libraries. There are so many suble nuances between bow/bow position on the string/amount of rosin used/bow pressure (via arm weight)/bow speed that a good player will vary based on interpretation of any particular note, that capturing it all is nearly impossible (and this doesn't even begin to discuss portamento, particularly the many cases where it must occur when shifting while executing slurs with the bow, etc., vibrato techniques, etc., etc., etc.).

Jim
#38
jpq
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RE: Best Orchestral Library? 2008/11/06 10:02:36 (permalink)
i think brasses and flutes have much more problems than strings i mean somethingin awful most of them very metallic soundin in negative way etc. but strings have own problems and these are with woodwinds and mallets,et percussion is what i need most often in symphony orchestra. but generally often flutes are deprecated instrument group. why? i think libraries are made massive soundtrack use not for traditonal composing.:)
#39
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