Enough already!

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RKM33
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2008/09/17 12:13:26 (permalink)

Enough already!

I'm finally mixing my CD and basically driving myself nuts! I'm making adjustments of things like one tenth of a db and swear I hear a difference. I mix stuff all the time, but I guess because this one is mine I'm knit picking every little detail. Just wondering if any of you ever do this. I mean really...one tenth of a db?...I have a hard time believing my ears could be that good.

Rick
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    bapu
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 12:28:24 (permalink)
    you must be the next Lanois, Eno or Sweiden (sic?)

    Better insure those ears.
    #2
    Razorwit
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 12:39:13 (permalink)
    Hi Rick,
    Generally speaking you probably can't, though I certainly don't discount much of anything. Although sensitivity is frequency dependent, the research I've seen indicates that the best people can do is reliably differentiate between 2 sources separated by .3 db (and that was using pink noise and allowing the subjects to A/B as much as they wanted). I would speculate that some really good engineers may be able to perceive differences smaller than that in certain circumstances by inferring the difference from other effects (phasing, stereo field or potentially even poor room acoustics causing additive effects) but it'd probably be tough.

    On a more helpful note, are you getting enough time away from the project? Ear fatigue is a very real thing.

    Good luck
    Dean
    post edited by Razorwit - 2008/09/17 12:47:36
    #3
    RKM33
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 12:45:09 (permalink)
    Ed, That's what I mean. There's no way I'm actually hearing a difference, right? So basically I'm driving myself nuts for no apparent reason other than I can't just let it go. A good shrink may be in order here...

    Dean, I know what you mean about the ear fatigue. Amazing how different everything sounds the next morning when I go back in.

    Thanks for the responses.

    Rick
    #4
    j boy
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 13:32:09 (permalink)
    Don't forget, just because you move the virtual fader +/- 0.1 dB doesn't mean the net audio level change is only 0.1 dB. If you've got sends operating post-fader they'll add into the net bump... more sends, more bump.
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    jonespnice1
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 13:49:01 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: RKM33

    I'm finally mixing my CD and basically driving myself nuts! I'm making adjustments of things like one tenth of a db and swear I hear a difference. I mix stuff all the time, but I guess because this one is mine I'm knit picking every little detail. Just wondering if any of you ever do this. I mean really...one tenth of a db?...I have a hard time believing my ears could be that good.

    Rick

    I mix all the time and I'm like you I sometimes do hear a difference when adjusting just a .1db on my fader. Sometimes the vocalist or guitar player may have performed with bad technique (a non-consistent volume level), and what you might be hearing is the inconsistencies of the performance. What I would suggest is some automation maybe riding the faders or maybe more detailed volume automation, if need be use a compressor to help control volume but try the automation first.
    #6
    RKM33
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 14:15:41 (permalink)
    These tunes are really in the final stages of mixing, so I actually do have quite a bit of automation going on. That's primarily what I've been adjusting. Glad to hear that someone else can hear a difference too though. Even if we are the only ones who actually do hear it.

    Rick
    #7
    barbaroja
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 14:21:52 (permalink)
    Definitely a 0.1 db change is something hearable. In fact I sometimes wish to have smaller scales.

    It is not something that affects you in a sparse mix. But if it is a cluttered one, those small differences make big changes.
    #8
    RKM33
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 15:15:58 (permalink)
    Most of these tunes do have quite a bit going on. Thanks for letting me know I'm not nuts!

    Rick
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    CJaysMusic
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 16:58:45 (permalink)
    I'm finally mixing my CD and basically driving myself nuts! I'm making adjustments of things like one tenth of a db and swear I hear a difference. I mix stuff all the time, but I guess because this one is mine I'm knit picking every little detail. Just wondering if any of you ever do this. I mean really...one tenth of a db?...I have a hard time believing my ears could be that good.

    Its common. your just too close to the project. Its why its good to have soemone else master it. I never adhere to that, but its one of the reasons why its best to.
    Cj

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    #10
    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 17:37:59 (permalink)
    Do you lean forward when you make the adjustment?

    Ahah! I thought so. :-)
    #11
    RKM33
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 19:32:21 (permalink)
    Its common. your just too close to the project. Its why its good to have soemone else master it. I never adhere to that, but its one of the reasons why its best to.


    This project I actually am having someone else master.

    Do you lean forward when you make the adjustment?


    I can only lean as far forward as my straightjacket will allow.
    #12
    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 19:51:02 (permalink)
    I'm half joking but consider the possibility that for example if you are 3 feet from some near field monitors and you lean forward to make a level adjustment you will actually increase the SPL at your ears simply by moving forward a SIGNIFICANT distance in relation to the overall distance from your drivers.

    It's possible a .1dBFS increase in overall level could be perceived as a much greater difference if your listening position changes.

    I know that's not really what you're discussing but it's some thing to throw into the discussion.

    best regards,
    mike
    #13
    AT
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 23:29:31 (permalink)
    Put it up for a few days if you can. A lot of times if you do that and then come back, you'll immediately hear if there is a problem. I know, I know, it is fun to fiddle, but once you start making small increments on one track you ( or at least I) often don't see the forest anymore. Take a break - as long as you can, away from the mix.

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    prog_head
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/17 23:49:35 (permalink)
    Absolutely... I have to go over everything numerous times... but at some point you have to let go... or it will never get finished. I am so burned after finishing two of our own albums in the last year... I haven't looked at the computer since... :)

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    John
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 00:50:58 (permalink)
    Making a good mix is an art. No one can say its not the single hardest thing to do in a DAW. Its also hard to let it go when you know that you can make it better. I feel for you but you have to learn when to say enough is enough. Of course Sonar 8 is just around corner. That means you will no doubt remix it in the your new Sonar. All I can say is have fun. Otherwise don't do it. The worst thing is having the notion that any given mix is valid. That is even worst then remixing knowing that it is good just a little different. I have a love hate relationship with mixing. On the other hand I would never let anyone mix anything I did.

    One thing I have learned is when you run out of ideas to try its time to rap it up. The song is now mixed. Just don't get a new plugin.

    Best
    John
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    montezuma
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 01:28:07 (permalink)
    Close enough is good enough in my book...so no I don't go crazy mixing
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    maxsax
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 09:09:32 (permalink)
    I usually do getting on for a hundred mixes - give up - leave things for a couple of months - then go back to something like mix 17 - tweak 10 times - realise 10 days later tweak 4 was the one and finally I'm done. If I could get there straight away I could quadruple my free time!

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    #18
    rosabelle
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 09:37:04 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: RKM33
    I'm making adjustments of things like one tenth of a db and swear I hear a difference.

    The real question is if you can hear a difference when you adjust an eq that's not even enabled!

    Seriously, have you ever made a tiny change to something and heard a difference and then realized that the gear you adjusted wasn't in the signal chain? That's happened to me, and it's happened to a lot of sound people I know. That's when you need to step back a bit and refresh your head. (and the various pieces therein.)
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 09:42:56 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: rosabelle

    ORIGINAL: RKM33
    I'm making adjustments of things like one tenth of a db and swear I hear a difference.

    The real question is if you can hear a difference when you adjust an eq that's not even enabled!

    Seriously, have you ever made a tiny change to something and heard a difference and then realized that the gear you adjusted wasn't in the signal chain? That's happened to me, and it's happened to a lot of sound people I know. That's when you need to step back a bit and refresh your head. (and the various pieces therein.)



    Me too.... it kind takes the wind out of your sails!

    Having that kind of experience can also liberate you from all the A/B testing drama that we read about.

    :-)
    #20
    bitflipper
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 10:01:57 (permalink)
    I'm finally mixing my CD and basically driving myself nuts! I'm making adjustments of things like one tenth of a db and swear I hear a difference. I mix stuff all the time, but I guess because this one is mine I'm knit picking every little detail. Just wondering if any of you ever do this. I mean really...one tenth of a db?...I have a hard time believing my ears could be that good


    There probably is a name for this psychological phenomenon because it's quite common. An instrument will sound louder to you simply because you're listening to that instrument. Other tracks that you're not concentrating on will become transparent. This is why you can come in the next morning and go "whoa, that snare is way to loud - what was I thinking last night?".

    The best advice is to leave the project alone for a day or two and then come back to it.

    It also helps to listen to your mix somewhere where you can't make any changes to it, such as in the car or on an iPod. When you can't touch anything, it helps to restore some perspective and let you hear the whole mix without fixating on individual parts.

    Toward the very end of the process, you should be making very small changes, typically 0.5db to 1db. One can argue that under certain circumstances, you can hear smaller changes, but we're talking about a mix, not some lab experiment. It's not whether you can hear a 0.1db change, but whether it makes any appreciable difference in the mix balance. It doesn't.

    Any individual track will vary by way more than half a db within itself, so such a small increment isn't likely to make much difference in relation to the other tracks, all of which are varying by several db as they go along.

    I do, however, make half-db changes often, late in the process. I do that to prevent myself from doing something stupid, like boosting the kick by 4db and thinking "oh, that sounds much better!" (and it probably does) and in the process screwing up the overall EQ and the compression settings.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #21
    D K
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 11:30:17 (permalink)
    Turn your computer monitor(s) off and listen to the mix - don't change anything - wait 2 weeks and do the same thing - this time make adjustments but no computer monitors - no visual feedback..

    Might not sound like it is related but you would be surprised how much your eyes can compromise your ears.

    Just something someone suggested to me and I tried it...very surprising and interesting results........

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    #22
    AT
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 11:48:24 (permalink)
    Rosabelle,

    this can also work on others. I did live sound at afterhours clubs in NYC. One of the promoters fancied himself a sound guy. We had a graphic EQ wired in but I left it unengaged. He would constantly come to the sound booth and "adjust" it and say it "sounds better."

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    #23
    bermuda
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 11:54:50 (permalink)
    Is it because you are listening for the instrument you adjusted in the mix, rather than the whole mix after your adjustments.

    Is there bias in your perception...brain applying filters to identify the instrument of focus...

    i wonder

     Yes.
    #24
    Marah Mag
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 13:15:10 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: rosabelle

    ORIGINAL: RKM33
    I'm making adjustments of things like one tenth of a db and swear I hear a difference.

    The real question is if you can hear a difference when you adjust an eq that's not even enabled!

    Seriously, have you ever made a tiny change to something and heard a difference and then realized that the gear you adjusted wasn't in the signal chain? That's happened to me, and it's happened to a lot of sound people I know. That's when you need to step back a bit and refresh your head. (and the various pieces therein.)


    I experience that from time to time. And also something similar, where for example I'll want to make a minor adjustment to a bass part, and I think I'm doing it, but I'm actually adusting a guitar part. It could just just be me fooling myself. But it could also be that by changing the guitar I'm indirectly bringing about a change in the bass, as far as how it's contributing to the mix.... which really gets to a basic principle of mixing. It's a stream of illusions, some of them real.

    #25
    RKM33
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 14:40:04 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the responses to this post. I think sometimes I actually do hear a difference and other times it really is just an illusion. A friend of mine says you could have a switch on your keyboard that does absolutely nothing, but somehow, every time you move it you'll manage to hear some sort of change. I'm just happy to know that I'm not the only one who goes through this.

    Best Regards,
    Rick
    #26
    lazarous
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 15:53:56 (permalink)
    Hey, Rick... If you're really obsessing about your mixes, give yourself a hard deadline. It's been said before... Projects are never "done" they're just taken away!

    Otherwise, you may literally NEVER release it!

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    #27
    RKM33
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/18 19:31:34 (permalink)
    Hey, Corey - I think that's why I've been obsessing. It's off to the mastering lab on Monday!

    Rick
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    Swinhart
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/25 19:35:05 (permalink)
    Hey RKM33,

    It's really a psycho-acoustic phenomenon. It plays with your head. It's kinda like starting to drive on the highway. At first the road noise is really obnoxious. Then after 30 minutes, your ears and head adjust (automatically)! It's like coming out of the studio and listening to the house stereo (which at the time sounds terrible). Then after a while when you return to the studio, you wonder why the mix sounds bad! It's your ears and brain which are "adjusting". But then again, we have to trust our ears for a good mixdown, so there!

    Fun stuff huh?

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    #29
    Guitarhacker
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    RE: Enough already! 2008/09/26 09:30:53 (permalink)
    Rick.....all this is good advice...let it set for a few days, have someone else listen, don't be to critical..... I like to mix it...let it set a few days and have another listen..a little fresher...so to speak... and then consider it finished. If you're mixing to post online "quick & dirty" is OK.... (my prefered method)

    ...however if your planning a career and shopping a record deal or planning to release a CD commercially.... don't mix/master your own stuff....trust it to a pro, and pay the price.

    You can always get "free" advice by posting a song or two in the songs forum.....so post a tune there and ask for a "brutal" mix review....see if others agree with what you hear...or ....don't hear.

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