daveny5 - ASIO is NOT I REPEAT NOT a driver man... can you tell me how an audio stack works? In both XP and Vista? I can sure explain it to you - but I am thinking that I might loose you on that. ASIO is an API - one more time in case you missed it - it is an API. An Application Programming Interface that connects an application to WDM compatible driver - or in the case of Vista a WDM Compatible driver or a UAA driver that is actually part of windows thus far more stable than a 3rd party driver.

Depending on the application you can select an API that you wish to use. Some may be MME (very old API that began it's life with Windows 3.1 (Multi Media Extenstions)). Directsound, which was part of the DirectX APIs. Both MME, and Directsound are now defunct starting with Vista - any application that uses any of these API's in Vista will go through an emulation to emulate Directsound or MME calls into WASAPI (Windows Audio Session API). There are 3rd party APIs such as Steinberg ASIO which is still the best API for audio applications out there (although WASAPI looks promising) that are not effected by this change.

Now with all that said - most UAA devices are (well look at that) onboard sound cards and Sound Blasters... I have yet to see a Pro Interface that is UAA Compliant. This is far more stable that having M-Audio, or Presonus, or MOTU any other 3rd party vendor write their own drivers. With UAA you can simply plug the device in and Windows already knows all about the device's features.

"The ASIO4ALL driver isn't even an ASIO driver. Its a WDM driver made to look like an ASIO driver. "

Again you need to learn the technology before you comment... this statement cannot be true as ASIO is not a driver (Drivers are WDM Kernel drivers (in XP/Vista) or UAA driver (in Vista). ASIO4ALL is an API that can talk to any WDM Kernel driver (well almost any). In a few years this well not work as Microsoft plans to move to using only the UAA driver model for audio devices and WDM Kernel drivers will be defunct.

Now I have NEVER had a problem with any onboard sound device's WDM Kernel driver or a Sound Blaster's - always work. If it works well in Windows then the driver is fine... however some applications might have problems with their API implementations. This has nothing to do with the driver. However if the application has calls that crashes the API or makes the API crash the driver... guess what, WDM is a kernel driver, and as the kernel IS windows, this would bring down the Operating System. You see how all these pieces play a part? The good thing about Vista's UAA - it is not a kernel driver. Means if there is a crash between the application and driver - it will not bring down the kernel (Operating System).

All in all the differences between the 'Pro Audio' interface and the standard 'Sound Card' are becoming marginal at best. The few components that are required (i.e the converters) are and have been for while on par with each other. And the others (i.e Mic Pres etc) that are aimed mostly at home recording musicians, however these are not ALWAYS required. If were to take my Joe Meek SixQ mic pre and connect from the digital out to the digital in on a X-Fi (Sound Blaster) I am sure I would get a slightly better recording that if I were to plug my mic into my Personus Firebox's mic pres.

The point that is trying to be made here is that 95% of the time if somebody mentions 'I use a Sound Blaster' or 'I am using the onboard soundcard' everybody jumps on them like they are superior for buying themselves a 'Pro Audio Interface' - yet these same people when it comes down to it have no idea how this stuff TRULY works.

You Audigy is junk hey? You know that since the Sound Blaster Live!, EMU has been designing and developing the chips for these cards? And now that Sound Blaster is UAA compatible you don't even need a Creative Labs driver for the card to work. Wish the same could be said for my Firebox, or my interfaces of the past....

Tascam US-428
Tascam US-224
Echo Audio Mona
MOTU 2408 (Original)
Steinberg VSL-2020
M-Audio Audiophile 2496
Saffire LE
Presonus Firepod
Roland UA-100 (before they changed this product line to Edirol)

I have seen a LOT of interfaces... some good some bad - but you need to know what to look before you can say what was good with them and what was bad.

Cheers,
Chris

You know that since the Sound Blaster Live!, EMU has been designing and developing the chips for these cards?

Right... Chevrolets and Corvettes are both made by GM. You wouldn't catch me driving a Chevy (or any GM car for that matter) and you won't catch me using a Soundblaster either. If you are satisfied with Creative soundcards, then you should use them. but don't try to tell me that they are as good as M-Audio audio interfaces.

I did quite a bit of work on making HDAudio devices work properly in SONAR 8 both in XP and in Vista.
You should be able to get 24 bit recording and playback working in SONAR 8 with most of these devices.

In Vista on some multichannel HDAudio implementations there are issues were issues where channels other than 1 and 2 may not work. In one such case it was resolved by installing the manufacturers driver rather than using the stock HDAudio.sys driver. Also in Vista the issue is sometimes complicated further by WaveRT drivers that are not event mode.

Chris you make a lot of good points but the problem is most of us have had at some point an SB that we used years ago. It was OK then for the simple things we may have done then now many need low latency multiple in and outs with decent pres. An SB or onboard chip just wont cut it. Drivers aside nothing that comes on the MB is going to out perform a high quality well made audio interface. No argument is goiny to change that fact.

We have a well known poster here that has a real animosity toward SBs and in most cases he is right. However I and a few others have defended the SB cards that can in fact work in a well setup machine but they will never give the same performance that a pro audio interface can and does give. Nor can any of these deal with various sampling rates or bit depths that many of us routinely use.

BTW ASIO does not use WDM at all. You can run an ASIO dirver on Win 98 before WDM came out. Cubase used it with Cubase VST. It was their way to bypass the MME driver of that time and allow for multiple ins and outs. MME would not support multiple ins and outs. Also it was not a low latency driver model

I feel that you need to defend the Delta 44 card because somebody you it was a Pro Audio card and now you need to justify it ;-)

No. I've used an Audigy and a Realtek and the drivers are not as good and I didn't think they had the clarity of sound that the Delta44 has. No one told me anything and I've had my Delta44 since they first came out, many years ago.

I don't doubt there is marketing hype... I believe all advertising is lies and exaggerations so I'm not really influenced by that. If you search the web, you'll find that Creative Labs has lost several lawsuits for overhyping their products.

Check out these charts for a head-to-head comparison.

Drivers aside nothing that comes on the MB is going to out perform a high quality well made audio interface. No argument is goiny to change that fact.

The point for me isn't about whether the onboard chip will 'outperform' it's the point that many folk here will make someone who is making use of the onboard chip for whatever reason out to be some kind of 2nd rate citizen, and get all Billy Big balls about what they've got.

The fact is, like or not, it works, works well and you can do much with just Sonar and yer onboard card....blanket saying get a 'pro' card is just elitist bull, some folk just can't run to the extra $200 upwards especially after just shelling out for the software and plenty of folk love being able to do stuff on their mobile computers without carrying a rake of outboard gear.

HD Audio works with Sonar! The tech guy just came on and said he made sure it did.

Pass it on.

Nor was it even able to work with Sonar in any kind of useful way.

Define useful here?

ORIGINAL: John
That is not system critical audio streaming of multiple audio streams in and out. Sorry it just isn't going to cut it there.

Then perhaps you NEED a high-end card, I can't remember ever having a critical need to stream multiple audio streams, but I do remember YOU categorically telling me I NEEDED a high-end card....which actually I didn't.

An M-Audio 24-96 is not going to break anyone's bank yet will perform much better in this situation then any SB or Realtek.

I'm an arranger more than anything, I don't record anything apart from bouncing vsti's and I get sent stems for other stuff. I've supplied a few pro studios with 24 bit stems and normally I get praise for the quality (which I put down to Sonar).

Thanks for the head up on the 2496 buy my lappy ain't got a pci slot...

Besides the audio quality ain't gonna be any better than the 888 as has already been covered and you'd still need a pre anyway and my latency is fine for the midi tracking I do thank you.

But I do appreciate the suggestion, so much nicer than a directive...

ORIGINAL: John

Then perhaps you NEED a high-end card, I can't remember ever having a critical need to stream multiple audio streams, but I do remember YOU telling me I NEEDED a high-end card....which actually I didn't.

You don't ever record more then one thing at a time? Then good for you. I do and wouldn't want anything less. That is why I do have a pro interface. But not for just that it is also low latency. I don't think you can get a SB or an onboard chip to have low latency yet. I don't recall telling anything on what you should get but what I meant if I did was something that you would be happy with for the app you have. An M-Audio 24-96 is not going to break anyone's bank yet will perform much better in this situation then any SB or Realtek.

"I don't think you can get a SB or an onboard chip to have low latency yet. "

5ms on a X-Fi with Directsound... even lower using the supplied ASIO API. If Directsound wasn't emulated in Vista (as it has to be mixed in the audio stack before going to the driver) I am sure it could get even lower using that API. People beat that word around all the time "latency... blah blah blah... latency... blah blah blah... latency... blah blah blah... latency... blah blah blah..." But what they don't know is what steps are taking on the inside of the audio subsystem to get that.

What, an 8 year old thread?
 
if you say so

Spammer. Is there anyone to report him to now? I did anyway.
 
(nice to read Jonbouy in full-on mode though )